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HomeMy WebLinkAbout04/25/2006 AGENDA CITY OF MAPLEWOOD COMMUNITY DESIGN REVIEW BOARD Tuesday, April 25, 2006 6:00 P.M. Council Chambers. Maplewood City Hall 1830 County Road BEast 1. Call to Order 2. Roll Call 3. Approval of Agenda 4. Approval of Minutes: April 11 , 2006 5. Unfinished Business: None Scheduled 6. Design Review: a. Town Center Comprehensive Sign Plan Amendment (Best Buy) -1795 County Road D b. Sign Code Interpretation - Electronic Reader Boards 7. Visitor Presentations: 8. Board Presentations: a. Special City Council Meeting, April 18, 2006 - Gladstone Redevelopment Concept Plan 9. Staff Presentations: a. CDRB Representation at the May 8, 2006, City Council Meeting - Items to Be Discussed Include Sign Code Interpretation - Electronic Reader Boards b. Planning Commission and CDRB Responsibilities and Duties - Possible Meeting 10. Adjourn MINUTES OF THE MAPLEWOOD COMMUNITY DESIGN REVIEW BOARD 1830 COUNTY ROAD BEAST, MAPLEWOOD, MINNESOTA TUESDAY, APRIL 25,2006 I. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Olson called the meeting to order at 6:02 p.m. II. ROLL CALL Board member John Hinzman Vice-Chairperson Matt Ledvina Chairperson Linda Olson Board member Joel Schurke Board member Ananth Shankar Absent Present Present Present Present Staff Present: Shann Finwall, Planner Lisa Kroll, Recording Secretary III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Board member Schurke requested a short discussion regarding the lack of funding for clean up of open space in Maplewood to be discussed under Board Presentations as item b. Board member Ledvina moved to approve the agenda as amended. Board member Shankar seconded. Ayes -Ledvina, Olson, Schurke, Shankar The motion passed. IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Approval of the CORB minutes for April 11, 2006. Board member Schurke had changes to page 2, seventh paragraph, changing the word sediment to sentiment. Chairperson Olson had changes to pages 2, 5, and 8. On page 2, second paragraph, add a paragraph indent after the word 18 months indenting the discussion about Board member Ledvina as its own paragraph. On page 5, third paragraph, Chairperson Olson asked if the second sentence could be stricken from the discussion which states The St. Paul Tourist Cabin site has a letter of intent fram Central Community Housing Trust (CCHT). (Chairperson Olson could not remember if there was a letter of intent or not. As recording secretary that is what I remembered hearing at the HRA meeting but then Ms. Finwall thought that was incorrect and said staff would verify that and include the proper language.) On page 8, in the fourth paragraph, she thought this was a school board issue and did not want to cause any unnecessary grief by speaking out of turn and asked if the paragraph could read Chairperson Olson said the population of school age children in this area of Maplewood is on the decline. aRE! t!:lera may be a need to close aRot!:ler SGhool in Maplo'JIood. So there '....ould lae no noeE! to build new schools iR t!:lis area and which appears not to be an iss~o. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 2 Board member Ledvina asked if it was appropriate for board members to amend statements as they were made and reflected in the minutes? He thought the minutes were intended to reflect what was actually said at the meeting. If there was a different meaning or if there was an error made, that's different, but he questioned if the board members should be removing or striking text from the minutes if those were statements that were actually made? Ms. Finwall said to clarify, you as a board member could change language stating that this is what you actually meant verses what you actually said and that would be appropriate but to change the intent may not be proper. Chairperson Olson said the reason she suggested the edits is for the purpose of accuracy. Board member Ledvina said if it was not what you actually said then it should be changed but if it what was what you said and you just don't want it misinterpreted, then it should remain in the minutes for the record. Chairperson Olson said once the minutes are approved they go onto many different levels and become documents of record and she doesn't want her passionate statements to be misconstrued. Board member Schurke said Board member Ledvina brings up an interesting point. Maybe Chairperson Olson could clarify for the record what she meant to say and have it recorded in the minutes now. Chairperson Olson said she would like the items she brought up to be clarified in the minutes but if it would cause conflict they should remain as she stated during the meeting. She didn't feel it was appropriate for her to be speaking for the school board or for CCHT, which was the interpretation of comments she had heard at previous meetings. Board member Schurke moved approval of the minutes of April 11 , 2006, as amended. Board member Shankar seconded. Ayes --- Olson, Schurke, Shankar Abstention - Ledvina The motion passed. V. UNFINISHED BUSINESS None. VI. DESIGN REVIEW a. Town Center Comprehensive Sign Plan Amendment (Best Buy) - 1795 County Road D (6:10 - 7:05 p.m.) Ms. Finwall said Paul Anderson of WCL Associates, representing Best Buy, is proposing signage for the new Best Buy store located at 1795 County Road D. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 3 The new Best Buy store is currently under construction and is located within the Town Center Shopping Center. Best Buy is proposing three new wall signs on their building and is also proposing to reface the existing Frank's Nursery freestanding sign located along the highway. All existing signs on the current store will be removed. The city's sign code requires all multi-tenant buildings with five or more tenants to have a comprehensive sign plan approved by the community design review board (CDRB). Any amendments to the approved plan must be reviewed by the CDRB. Best Buy is requesting an amendment to Town Center's existing comprehensive sign plan. Chairperson Olson asked staff which of the wall signs she would recommend removing in her proposed conditions? Ms. Finwall said she would leave that up to the board and the applicant. Board member Schurke said on page 2 of the staff report, in the second paragraph it states "the draft sign code, when approved by the city council, would allow one wall sign for each street upon which the property has frontage, plus one wall sign for each clearly differentiated department." He asked what differentiated department meant? Board member Shankar said an example of a differentiated department is like a Pharmacy sign on the Target building showing different departments in the store. Ms. Finwall said correct. Board member Schurke asked how many departments Best Buy would have? Board member Shankar said he thought Best Buy would need a sign like automotive installation or something of that sort. Board member Schurke asked if there was language in the draft sign code that defines what differentiated department means? Ms. Finwall said no. Board member Schurke asked what street classification meant? He asked if Highway 694 represented a street classification? Ms. Finwall said yes. The draft sign code does not define a street in the sign code. Board member Shankar asked if the 375.4 square foot sign for Best Buy as shown on attachment 4 in the staff report exceeded the allowable square footage for a sign? Ms. Finwall said correct. The draft sign code would only allow for 150 square feet of sign for a building of this size. Board member Shankar said staff recommended one of the Best Buy signs be removed and he asked if that would be for the 375 square foot sign? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 4 Ms. Finwall said that's the size of the sign but not necessarily on that side of the building. Ms. Finwall said this is a good reality check of the proposed draft sign code for the CDRB. Chairperson Olson said she sees this is as a unique situation. Because Best Buy has one frontage and two streets and in her opinion this could justify a sign on every side of the building. Board member Shankar said there is really only one street frontage here which is County Road D. Chairperson Olson said she thinks Highway 694 counts as street frontage too. Board member Schurke said he would recommend clarification for the sign code regarding what street designation is. He doesn't necessarily see Highway 694 as street frontage, he sees this as adjacent and not as frontage. He stated his appreciation for Best Buy's very clear plans, which makes it easier for the CDRB to understand what is being proposed. By turning the building with the east facing orientation it almost drives the need for additional signage which may be an advantage for parking. He thinks this is could have too much signage and could be confusing for customers. He doesn't think it's necessary to add the landscaped masonry at the base of the sign. The clean lines of the sign coming out of the ground are fine with him. Knowing if the landscaping would be maintained is a real issue for him. He has often seen landscaping not maintained and it looks better without landscaping. The other issue is a limitation of the hours the signs could be illuminated or hours that the signs could be dimmed because he doesn't see a lot of advertising value illuminating the signs between the hours of 12:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. that could also be electrical savings and energy conservation for Best Buy. These signs could be put on the energy management system. He asked staff if the draft sign code addresses these issues in terms of light levels? Ms. Finwall said the signs are covered in the current lighting ordinance in terms of light glare, however the city does not have a requirement as to when the signs need to be turned off. Board member Schurke said as the sign ordinance comes into its own he would rather see more specificity in the illumination hours. Ms. Finwall said regarding the landscaping of the pylon sign, staff was proposing a brick base around the two existing sign poles with landscaping around the brick and not in the interior of the brick. Staff's proposed condition is based on the fact that this sign is the most visible sign from County Road D. Best Buy is required to install a sidewalk along County Road D where pedestrians will be walking by the sign and the brick base and landscaping would help with the aesthetics of the sign. Board member Ledvina said he didn't have any questions for staff. Chairperson Olson asked the applicant to address the board. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 5 Mr. Jason Kraus, Property Development Manager, Best Buy, 7601 Penn Avenue South, Richfield, addressed the board. Mr. Kraus said he wanted to clarify that the sign they are proposing to reface on Highway 694 is exactly the same size of the existing panel. There must be some discrepancy in the report. He had the sign company measure the sign and according to them the 20 foot width is actually 16 feet and should be 160 square feet in size so he isn't sure how the discrepancy in the numbers occurred. He is having a problem with the front wedge or Best Buy sign at 150 square feet. This is a 45,000 square foot store and to have a 150 square foot sign would look very out of proportion. This building is placed on the site in an unusual manner and the visibility for retail space is key here. He would like to stress Best Buy would like to be able to keep the signage they are currently showing on the plan. Regarding the comment about the pylon sign on County Road D, Best Buy plans on leaving it the way it is. He knows there have been recommendations made to have brick and landscaping for the pylon sign but he appreciates the comments from the board members regarding the problem in keeping the landscaping maintained. The rest of the center is owned by Timco Realty and this Town Center sign is under their control. Board member Shankar said Best Buy opened a new store a few months ago in Oakdale on Radio Drive and he asked how large the sign is for that store? Mr. Kraus said he was not sure of the size of the Best Buy store sign in Oakdale. Board member Shankar asked if Best Buy had any other stores in the Twin Cities with signs that are 375 square feet in size? Mr. Kraus said yes most of the Best Buy store signs are 375 square feet in size. In Eagan they are currently building a Best Buy store that is 45,000 square feet like this store and it will have a sign 375 square feet in size. Board member Shankar asked if Best Buy wants to have a 375 square foot sign on the east side, why do you need the sign on the south side facing County Road D? Mr. Kraus said to catch the traffic driving east on County Road D. Board member Shankar asked why Best Buy would need the sign on the west side? Best Buy would have a pylon sign along Highway 694 that they are refacing so people coming from the frontage road would see that sign. Why would Best Buy need the sign on the west? Mr. Kraus said he noticed when driving on Highway 694 that there are a lot of trees and shrubbery on MnDOT's property and that blocks some of the visibility of Best Buy. Board member Schurke said if Best Buy had to pick from two wall signs which two elevations would Best Buy pick? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 6 Mr. Kraus said that would depend on which sign square footage the CDRB will allow Best Buy to have. He understands this is a draft sign code ordinance and it hasn't been enacted yet. He understands the fact that signage for Best Buy was not approved when the building elevations were reviewed. Now Best Buy finds out the draft sign ordinance has been complete, but theoretically Best Buy is under the existing sign code. Ms. Finwall said that is correct, however, this is a multi-tenant building, therefore it's covered by the city's comprehensive sign plan ordinance which allows the CDRB to make recommendations above or below the existing code to ensure compatibility and a comprehensive plan throughout the center. Mr. Kraus said he hopes the new Best Buy building will help dress this area up. He understands the need for additional aesthetics in this location. The existing Frank's Nursery building is coming down and the parking lot is going to be resurfaced. There is a good possibility that the owner is going to improve this site because of the need to get future tenants in here. Especially because of the new strip mall across the street. Board member Schurke said he understands the draft sign ordinance is a work in progress and he understands Ms. Finwall and the CDRB put a lot of time and effort into the sign ordinance. He asked if staff had thought of using a formula for total sign square footage and let the applicant decide how they would like to allocate this with five smaller signs or one large sign? Ms. Finwall said staff looked at that in the drafting of the sign ordinance. Some cities do that but none of those cities would allow one large 500 square foot sign. Staff felt it would be cumbersome for additional signage as years go by to ensure they are meeting the requirements. If a particular business called the city and asked if they could add an additional sign it would be a matter of researching the existing signs. Board member Schurke asked if Best Buy would be willing to be limited to certain hours that the signs could be illuminated? Mr. Kraus said Best Buy has an energy management system and he believes the sign illumination could be included in that. Board member Schurke asked if the current Best Buy signs are turned off at a certain time now? Mr. Kraus said he would have to check into that. Board member Schurke asked if Best Buy would be willing to limit the hours the signs could be illuminated? Mr. Kraus said he isn't in a position to make that decision. Board member Shankar asked Board member Schurke what hours he was suggesting Best Buy turn the signs off? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 7 Board member Schurke said in some communities such as in Arden Hills he believes there is a sign ordinance that relates specifically to sign height, which make for a more interesting way to attract customers to your business as a result of subtle changes in signage that are at street level. Rather than looking up at a sign the sign is at the level that you are driving at which gives a completely different aesthetic to the community because there are no pylon signs. Board member Schurke said he lives close to Keller Lake and when you look up at the night sky it's amazing the dome of light that keeps you from seeing the stars and the problem is getting worse every year with additional development occurring and adding to the light pollution. It would be a good goal to put these types of limitations on so that you aren't needlessly lighting the sky. He feels there is such little traffic driving by at those hours, what would the advertising benefit be to leave the sign lit? Best Buy is a destination business and most people know where the Best Buy stores are located. Mr. Kraus said Best Buy typically runs into lights being on a timer more so with wall sconces and parking lot lighting for night sky ordinances but hasn't had that restriction for lighting of the signage. There are a lot of communities that are using the night sky ordinances. There really isn't a glare problem with signage lighting because most of that light is contained behind the panels and the light is not being directed up or down. Wall sconces have light that can be directed up and down and the parking lot light can be directed down and out. Board member Schurke said the point is that there is a lot of light pollution and any additional lighting causes problems whether it comes from signage or lighting. Chairperson Olson asked if Best Buy had any foot candle data on the omissions that these signs put out? Mr. Kraus said no. Chairperson Olson asked for the purpose of safety would your signage provide any additional lighting that would help with security for pedestrians walking from the Myth nightclub? Mr. Kraus said very little security if any. The street lighting and parking lot lighting would provide more light security for pedestrians. Chairperson Olson said it seems to her the CDRB discussed wall sconce lighting on the side of the building along County Road D. She asked if that had been incorporated into the plan or not? Mr. Kraus said he is not familiar with that. Mr. Paul Anderson, WCL Architects, addressed the board. He said he was at the CDRB meeting last summer when these issues were discussed. He remembered the discussion regarding the wall sconces along the south side, adjacent to the sidewalk. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 8 Mr. Anderson said there are also wall sconces along the east side, which is the front wall and a few along the back of the building on the three piers. Mr. Kraus said a main concern for Best Buy is the amount of light on the site. He said not to stereotype nightclubs but being that the Myth nightclub is across the street, Best Buy is concerned about loss prevention and would prefer the site be well lit. Chairperson Olson said customers at the Myth nightclub are also your potential clients. The club could be an asset for Best Buy located across the street, so things can work both ways. Board member Schurke asked if the wall sconces would be night sky shielded sconces? Mr. Anderson said he would have to check but he thought these were all down lights. Chairperson Olson said she too thought the wall sconces were directing the light downward. Board member Shankar said his opinion is even though the sign code may be for a sign 150 square feet in size that may be too small for a building 45,000 square feet and visually get lost. He believes this building is large enough and the front wall sign should be at least 300 square feet but should be moved higher up on the building than the 16 feet 50/. inches in height. He thinks Best Buy should remove the sign on the west side facing Highway 694. He doesn't see how adding the brick on the base of the pylon sign would be a benefit. Board member Ledvina said he agreed with most of the staff recommendations. The new sign code should be used as a basis for evaluating the signs for Best Buy. He would agree with Board member Shankar that the front wall sign should be around 300 square feet but not 375.4 square feet as Best Buy proposed. The staff recommendation is for two wall signs and he doesn't have a preference which sign is removed but he feels the sign on the west side has the smallest value. He would leave that up to the applicant. Regarding the base of the pylon sign on County Road D, because Best Buy doesn't own that sign that would be difficult to require Best Buy to make changes to the sign. A comment was made that the mall would be getting some type of remodel and maybe at that time the pylon sign with the multi-tenants listed could be updated. Board member Schurke moved to approve the plans date-stamped March 28, 2006, for a comprehensive sign plan amendment for the Town Center Shopping Center located at 1805 County Road D. Approval is subject to the following conditions (changes made to the conditions by the CDRB during the meeting are underlined if added and stricken if deleted): 1. Repeat this review in two years if the city has not issued a sign permit for the Best Buy store within this time-frame. 2. Best Buy signage shall be limited to: Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 9 a. Three +we wall signs. These wall signs are limited to one 300 square foot siqn on the east elevation: one 150 square foot siqn on either the north. south, or west elevations: and one 18 square foot siqn on the north elevation which advertises the mobile installations. 1 98.2 square feet in area and can be locateel en any wall of tl=le l3~ilding. b. Two freestanding signs as follows: 1) 1-694: One freestanding sign limited to 180 square feet in area and 25 feet in height - Best Buy proposes to use the existing Frank's Nursery freestanding sign located along 1-694. This sign is 128 square feet in area and 25 feet in height. The following conditions to this freestanding sign must be met prior to issuance of any Best Buy sign permits on the property: ~ b) Eij c) a) If the new sign face exceeds 128 square feet in area, Best Buy must submit certified engineering approval that the existing footings and wind load carrying capacity which meets building code requirements. ~ A EletailsEl landscafle fllan must be sulamitteEl which s!:lows landscaping ar-e~nEl tho baso of t!:le sign. All existing Best Buy wall signs located on the old store must be removed once the old Best Buy store is closed. prior to certificate of oeG~panGY of the novo' Best Buy storo. The sign cabinet located on the existing Best Buy freestanding sign at the northeast corner of the Town Center Shopping Center site must be removed once the old Best Buy store is closed. prior to certificato of oGcupancy of t!:le new Best B~y store. 2) County Road D: The existing Town Center Shopping Center sign will remain. This sign is approximately 25 feet in height and consists of an internally illuminated sign cabinet posted on two steel beams, and advertises four of the main tenants within the center, including Best Buy. Tho fellowing conditions to t!:lis existing freestanding sign m~st lae met prior to tho iss~anco of any Best B~y sign permits on t!:le property: ~ Ro':isoEl elevations of tho Co~nty Road D sign mllst lao subFRittsEl to staff for appr-o'lal. The elevations must show a four foot high, or hig!:ler, IariGk or Goncrete masonry unit laaso constructed around tho existing stoollaoaFRs. b) ,II. detailoEl lanElsGape plan must be submitted which shows landscaping ar-ound tho base of t!:le sign. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 10 3. All other tenant wall signage shall be limited to: a. Signs composed of a single line of copy shall not exceed three feet in height. b. Signs composed of two lines of copy (stacked) shall not exceed a letter height of 18 inches per line with a maximum space between lines of eight inches, for a total height of 44 inches. If more than two lines of copy are used, the total height shall not exceed 44 inches. c. There must be at lest 18 inches of margin between any sign and the end of the store front. d. All wall signs shall be composed of individual, internally-lit letters, not canister- type signs. e. Tenant wall signage is allowed on both the front and rear elevations. f. Logos are permitted on the sign fascia, but shall not exceed a height of four feet and shall follow the 18-inch spacing requirement. 4. All holes from sign mounting shall be properly patched and painted upon sign removal. 5. The shopping center identification pylon sign shall be located along County Road D and be subject to staff approval. 6. Staff may approve minor modifications to the sign plans. Board member Ledvina seconded. Ayes -Ledvina, Olson, Schurke, Shankar The motion passed. The board recommended that Best Buy remove their company sign from the sign panel of the multi-tenant building which would open space up for another tenant on the Town Center sign. b. Sign Code Interpretation - Electronic Reader Boards (7:06 - 8:10 p.m.) Ms. Finwall said city staff is requesting an interpretation of the city's sign code in regard to electronic reader board signs. An electronic reader board is a sign with a fixed or changing display composed of a series of lights that are changed through electronic means. As a planner with the City of Maplewood over the last five years one of staff's responsibilities has been sign code compliance, including the issuing of sign permits. Each year electronic reader board sign requests have increased. Most of these requests include adding electronic reader board signs to existing freestanding signs. This seems to be due to the fact that these types of signs are becoming more affordable to businesses. Plaza TV and Appliance is a new business in Maplewood that moved into an existing building at 1918 Beam Avenue last year. Plaza TV applied for a sign permit that included the addition of an electronic reader board onto the existing freestanding sign. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 11 Staff explained to the sign company that the city prohibits those types of signs based on the interpretation of the sign code. David Motz, the President of Plaza TV and Appliance discussed the matter with staff and indicated that they could program the electronic reader board sign to have a steady and constant message rather than to blink, flash, or flutter. Staff stated that this request has been made in the past, and that staff has denied the requests due to the fact that the sign still has the capability of blinking, flashing, or fluttering. Allowing such signs, in staff's opinion, would become a code enforcement issue if a new manager or owner wasn't aware of the requirement of maintaining the text or image as a steady and constant display. The city would be constantly monitoring those types of signs. Staff indicated to Mr. Motz that the only way staff could issue a sign permit for such a sign is if the city council approved a variance from the sign code. After staff notified Mr. Motz of the variance requirement he submitted a letter to the city further requesting an electronic reader board sign. Mr. Motz's rationale is that they are not looking to vary from the ordinance, only to comply with the ordinance by programming their sign to be constant and steady. Electronic reader boards are designed to advertise products sold within a business, not to advertise the business itself. Many businesses have claimed that they depend on this form of advertisement to make their businesses viable. However, these signs are specifically designed to draw attention away from a motorist or pedestrian, which is a safety hazard. They also add to the constant barrage of advertisements the public experiences on a daily basis. (The Myth nightclub was issued a sign permit during the leave of staff member Shann Finwall.) The difference between this request of Plaza TV and Appliance and the sign at the Myth nightclub is based on the definition of sign types by method of movement. The city's existing sign code defines an animated sign as a sigh which depicts action or movement. However, this definition goes on to specify that the animation term does not refer to flashing, changing or indexing. The code defines a flashing sign as an illuminated sign which contains flashing lights or exhibits noticeable changes in light intensity. In staff's opinion, the Myth's sign is clearly a flashing sign since it has the capability of programming the lights to blink, flash, or flutter, which is prohibited in the city's sign code. An animated sign is not animated by function of its lights, but by function of its movement. An example of an animated sign would be a sign with movable parts, such as a sign depicting a person waving where the arm of a person is moving up and down on the sign. In staff's interpretation of the code the Myth's sign permit was issued in error and the Myth should be required to obtain a variance from the code in order to retain their sign. City staff recommends that the community design review board and city council offer clarification on the city's sign code pertaining to electronic reader board signs. Interpretation questions to be answered include: 1. Should businesses be allowed to install electronic reader board signs on the condition that they keep the text and images steady and constant? 2. Is a state of the art, full color LED sign considered an animated sign or a flashing and blinking sign? If considered a flashing and blinking sign, should the Myth Nightclub be required to obtain a variance to retain their sign, even though the city issued them a sign permit? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 12 3. Is the draft sign code language adequate to address these issues in the future? Chairperson Olson said she is glad this subject came up. She said she has received several complaints in the last month from Maplewood residents regarding the sign at the Myth nightclub. People initially thought the sign was going to be on a few hours a day but the sign is on all the time. She assumed the sign would only be on while the Myth was open but that is not the case. She wondered how this sign made it through the approval process by city staff. She was going to send an e-mail to city staff and then this issue came up in the CDRB packet. She thought she would wait until the discussion came up at the meeting tonight. Chairperson Olson said people driving on Highway 694 see the Myth sign and the motion of the sign and it is very distracting. People driving on White Bear Avenue see the sign as well. There are flames shooting out of people's eyes and many other motions coming from this sign which are very distracting. The sign has already been approved and it's operating so there is not much we can do about it now but she would like to require the Myth to only have still images on the sign because when the sign is in motion it is very distracting. She said the city cannot keep electronic reader board signs out of the City of Maplewood any longer. These types of signs exist in the community and the request is going to continue to come in for those types of signs. Board member Shankar said the city has the right to say electronic reader board signs are not allowed in Maplewood. Chairperson Olson said she doesn't think that is reasonable. Board member Schurke agreed with Board member Shankar. He sees electronic reader board signs as eye pollution. Board member Shankar said he can see electronic reader board signs for buildings that cater to large groups of people like Aldrich Arena, Xcel Energy Center, etc. but he doesn't feel it's necessary to have an electronic reader board for a small business such as Plaza TV and Appliance. Other appliance stores don't require electronic reader boards to conduct business. Chairperson Olson disagrees, she thinks there are two different kinds of electronic reader board signs here. The Plaza TV representatives are requesting a small electronic reader board sign similar to the electronic sign on the Premier Bank building at the corner of White Bear Avenue and Lydia Avenue. They are not requesting a color electronic reader board sign or anything fancy. She said this is an electronic reader board sign that would contain text only. Board member Schurke said staff displayed a picture of the Plaza TV sign on the overhead screen with an electronic reader board sign shown already. He asked if that was a computer generated photo or has the electronic reader board sign already been installed? Ms. Finwall said that was a computer generated photo to represent what the sign would look like with the electronic reader board beneath the Plaza TV sign. Board member Shankar said he is concerned about what an electronic reader board sign would include. He asked if there would be animation, four different colors of text, or what? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 13 Chairperson Olson said the text should be constant and steady and not blinking or fluttering and that is all we as a board should be concerned about. Board member Shankar asked as a city how do we enforce that? Chairperson Olson asked how does the city enforce anything? There is a business in Maplewood at the corner of County Road C and White Bear Avenue that has 100% paint covered windows that still say "under new ownership" that has been there for 2 years now and the city hasn't enforced any regulations on that business. Chairperson Olson said by stating the sign parameters and requiring the owners to recognize the rules there shouldn't be any problems with signs in Maplewood. Board member Shankar said an electronic reader board sign is basically a television to him. Chairperson Olson said she disagrees with that statement. It's different when you are talking about text on a sign. Board member Shankar asked if Plaza TV would have the ability to change the text on the sign and flash an image as well? Chairperson Olson said Plaza TV should be able to change the text on the sign but should not be flashing images in any way. The electronic reader board sign for Premier Bank is very similar to what Plaza TV is proposing to have. The sign at the bank has scrolling words that have a series of community announcements. Ms. Finwall said just to clarify, the electronic reader board sign associated with the bank for time and temperature and public service messages are currently allowed in the existing sign code. This is a good example of code enforcement issues with that type of sign. The bank is advertising loan rates in addition to public service announcements so they are not using the sign for all the correct reasons. There are a few electronic reader board signs in the city that were approved with special approval by the city council like Aldrich Arena and a few signs that were approved years ago prior to the sign code and one or two signs with a different interpretation of the sign code, prior to her employment with the city. Chairperson Olson said when the CDRB was discussing the sign code ordinance the board discussed allowing gas stations to have electronic signs so it would be easier to change the price on the sign as opposed to taking vinyl magnetic numbers on and off. This is the right time to allow electronic reader board signs in Maplewood. As long as the signs are not flashing and fluttering it seems to be the appropriate thing to do. Ms. Finwall said staff has allowed electronic gas pricing signs because they are steady and constant. Staff's concern with electronic reader board signs is that they advertise a product within the business and not the business itself. A good example of that is the electronic reader board at Walgreen's in St. Paul at the corner of Larpenteur Avenue and White Bear Avenue where they have sales advertised scrolling across the screen. She personally sees that as eye pollution. Chairperson Olson asked the applicant to address the board. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 14 Mr. David Motz, President, Plaza TV and Appliance, 1918 Beam Avenue, Maplewood, addressed the board. He said this is a family owned business, they have two locations, the other location is in West St. Paul at South Robert Street, the previous location was at White Bear Avenue in St. Paul and they have since moved to their new location at 1918 Beam Avenue in July. Plaza TV said they want to follow the city sign code and will keep the electronic message constant or steady. They are a small business and they don't have the advertising budget that other companies have. That is why they want to have an electronic reader board sign to draw customers into their store. Mr. Motz said at the present time the West St. Paul store has a sign with the white board where you manually put magnetic letters and numbers on and off with a pole. They have had that for 10 years now. It's a real hindrance to have that kind of system. The wind blows things off the sign, the fluorescent bulbs have to be changed, the sign looks messy, and it is hard for the employees to go out and change the advertising on the sign. They are proposing to have an electronic reader board sign underneath the Plaza TV and Appliance sign, it would look more professional and is more energy efficient. Plaza TV spent a lot of money to move into this building in Maplewood and they want a decent sign out front to match their building. With the interpretation of the sign code he doesn't see why they can't have an electronic reader board sign if they follow the rules and doesn't see why they should have to apply for a variance. He said if the city informed people that if they get a permit for an electronic reader board sign and if they don't follow the city guidelines they could be fined for breaking the city ordinance. Mr. Motz said the city could place a fine such as $5,000 for breaking the rule. Most business owners aren't going to want to pay a fine like that and that would keep them from straying from the rules. It would really benefit Plaza TV if the city would grant them this electronic reader board sign. Board member Shankar asked what type of advertisement Plaza TV would have on this electronic reader board sign? Mr. Bob Sherlock, sign installer for Sign Art Company, 2170 Dodd Road, Mendota Heights, addressed the board. He said the electronic reader board sign would advertise products for Plaza TV and Appliance. This electronic sign would be a two line message board and would allow for two lines of text. The sign has the capability in the graphics software to animate, flash, rotate and do full graphics, although this sign is not a full color display sign like the Myth nightclub sign. Because of the reduced height and the size of the face it is not real high and it does not have the square footage capability to adequately present graphics on it. This is a low watt energy efficient sign with LED pixels. These aren't electronic bulbs with sockets. The graphic software can hold the same message for 1 year. The idea was to hold a specific message for at least 1 day. Chairperson Olson asked if the electronic reader board sign would be advertising products or would it be used to state the time and temperature like Premier Bank uses their sign? Mr. Motz said at times the sign could advertise the time and temperature but the sign would be more for advertising the product and the services they could give the customer. Chairperson Olson asked if Plaza TV felt they couldn't advertise the business through window advertising or other signs like what they use at their West St. Paul location? Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 15 Mr. Motz said this building is set back a ways off of Beam Avenue because of the frontage road that separates Beam Avenue and Plaza TV. Window advertising would not be effective being that there business is set back off the road. If the city allows a sign like the one at the KFC restaurant that doesn't look very professional, why wouldn't the city allow Plaza TV to have a more professional, more modern looking sign? Board member Shankar asked if the sign would be double sided? Mr. Sherlock said yes. Board member Shankar asked if the sign would have the same message on both sides of the sign? Mr. Sherlock said he would have to check on the specifics of this particular sign to see the ability of the sign. Some signs are automatically displayed with the same message on both sides and others can be programmed to read different text on each side of the sign if they have two different computer systems. Chairperson Olson asked if Plaza TV has an existing pylon sign now? Mr. Motz said they refaced the existing pylon sign from the previous business. Mr. Sherlock said the sign could be programmed to change the text message at any time as often as Mr. Motz would like. Mr. Motz said their current sign turns off at 2:00 a.m. and turns back on at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m. Mr. Sherlock said he has been working with signs since 1980. Most commercial businesses will provide a photo cell on the sign with a timer combination to turn the sign off late at night and turn it back on early in the morning. Board member Shankar asked how Plaza TV felt if the city required them to only change the text once a week on Sundays? Mr. Motz said that probably wouldn't be a problem. Ms. Finwall said if the city started to allow electronic reader board signs how would the city be able to ensure the signs weren't being changed too often or what the signs are reflecting? Board member Schurke recommended disallowing electronic reader boards in the current and proposed sign code in the City of Maplewood. Board member Schurke moved to deny the use of an electronic reader board sign for Plaza TV and Appliance at 1918 Beam Avenue. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 16 Board member Ledvina seconded. Ayes - Ledvina, Schurke Nay - Olson Abstention - Shankar This item will go to the city council on May 8, 2006. Chairperson Olson said she would like to discuss this topic again at the next CDRB meeting. Ms. Finwall said the CDRB could also discuss the second part of question 2 and all of question 3 shown in the staff report at a later date as well. Chairperson Olson asked if the only option Plaza TV and Appliance has is to apply for a variance for the electronic reader board sign? Ms. Finwall said yes. Chairperson Olson asked if the variance fee is $1,000 as the applicant stated in their letter? Ms. Finwall said off hand she was not sure of the exact fee for a variance. The applicant would be able to go to the city council meeting on May 8, 2006; the decision by the CDRB is only a recommendation to the city council. The city council makes the final decision. If the city council agrees with the recommendation by the CDRB the applicant has the option to apply for a variance at that time. Chairperson Olson asked staff what the options are for the Myth nightclub and the sign that has already been installed. She asked if the city can ask the Myth to take the sign down? Ms. Finwall said this is an unfortunate situation for the city to be in. The planner that gave the sign approval contacted the Myth as the sign was being installed and asked what type of messages would be shown on the screen and what types of graphics would be displayed on the screen because the city was struggling with the sign interpretation. The owners of the Myth indicated they would have some public service messages, but mostly they would advertise upcoming events at the club If the city does not enforce the sign code, the code is unenforceable. Ms. Finwall said so regardless of how the sign was approved, the city has to address this sign and should require a variance. The hardship may be that the city issued them a permit, therefore, the Myth should be allowed to keep this sign, however the city could require additional conditions such as the message has to remain constant and steady, and the sign has to be turned off at a certain time or something like that. Chairperson Olson said she is sympathetic to Plaza TV and Appliance. They were only asking for two lines of text on an electronic reader board sign compared to the Myth's huge video sign. Board member Ledvina said as far as the Myth is concerned this does not meet the requirements of the sign code so whatever actions the CDRB needs to take to correct this is appropriate. If the CDRB is going to look at the city's options we need to take the best course of action. The city can't ignore this situation. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 17 Board member Shankar said to answer question number 2 in the recommendations on page 5 of the staff report he answered yes to both questions. In his opinion a state of the art, full color LED sign is considered a flashing and blinking sign. Board member Schurke said he read the statement on page 4 of the staff report that says The city's existing sign code defines an animated sign as a sign which depicts action or movement. He understood the Sign Art representative for Plaza TV and Appliance to say the sign could have two lines of text that could depict action or movement by programming the sign that way. To him this is a sticky situation to define animation separate from flashing or fluttering. Board member Schurke said if the sign code text isn't clear enough we need to make it clear so there are no gaps in the sign code and mistakes aren't made. He asked if there is a rating requirement regarding animation on these signs? He said Chairperson Olson made a comment that flames were coming out of people's eyes on the Myth nightclub sign. Are there certain content guidelines that the applicants can follow so they don't cross the line? He said he has three young children and he wouldn't want to drive by this sign and have his children see certain things on the sign that may be offensive. Board member Schurke said to him the issue of policing these electronic reader board signs seems like it could potentially evolve into complaints from the community. What about the potential litigation the city could be exposed to in terms of car accidents as a result of a distracting sign such as the sign the Myth has. He thinks this is going to open the City of Maplewood up to potential lawsuits if someone has a car accident because of the distracting animation of the Myth sign. He asked if this was a potential problem in other cities. Chairperson Olson said she doesn't think the sign at the Myth is that crazy. She mentioned that she received comments from people regarding the Myth nightclub sign and the distraction from your peripheral vision, the content of the sign and the images that were portrayed. She isn't sure the city will have potential lawsuit issues here. She is concerned however, that the other planner approved this sign while Shann was on leave. The Myth sign is approved, it's up and working for 3 months now and we have to deal with it. Board member Ledvina said now the city has to evaluate what the best options are for dealing with the Myth sign. Now we have to find out what the city can ask the Myth to do regarding the situation. Board member Shankar asked if an animated sign is allowed by the sign code? Ms. Finwall said under the current sign code an animated sign is allowed and it is defined as a sign which depicts action or movement, however the definition does go on to specify the animation term does not refer to flashing, changing or indexing. The city prohibits any type of flashing or blinking. Board member Shankar said the new sign code should prohibit animated, flashing and blinking signs. Ms. Finwall said the only animated sign she knows of in Maplewood is at the Holiday store at Century Avenue and 10th. There is an auto repair business there and the sign spins around. An animated sign is a sign that spins or moves around. It's not the "movements" on the sign like an action on a television or video screen. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 18 Board member Ledvina referred to an animated sign to be like the barber shop sign where the red, white, and blue striped sign spins in a circle. Chairperson Olson recommended additional discussion regarding this section of the sign code to clear these issues up for the future. Ms. Finwall said it's imperative that the city council has the recommendation of the CDRB on the Myth sign. Chairperson Olson said this makes it difficult to work on these issues without a more clear and concise definition of the sign code from the city attorney. She thinks this discussion should be tabled because there are too many issues that are undefined. Chairperson Olson said regarding the questions on page 5 of the staff report, she answered yes to question number 1, yes to question number 2 and it is considered an animated sign or a flashing and blinking sign and they should not be allowed. Regarding question number 3, she thinks the CDRB needs to address the sign code on these issues more specifically. Board member Ledvina said you can call them big TV screens, flashing signs, animated signs, or whatever, either way they are not allowed in Maplewood. Ms. Finwall thought it was important to have a motion regarding question number 2. for the Myth nightclub. Board member Schurke moved that the existing sign code disallows LED signs and flashing and blinking signs such as the Myth night club sign. Board member Ledvina seconded. Ayes - Ledvina, Olson, Schurke, Shankar The motion passed. Chairperson Olson said when this comes back for discussion she would like to see these two issues broken down into two different categories. She doesn't see electronic reader board signs like the request from Plaza TV and Appliance in the same category as an outdoor TV screen with action and movement like the Myth sign. Ms. Finwall said because this is something new in Maplewood she believes it warrants different definitions. She will draft specific language regarding electronic reader boards and outdoor TV signs and bring this back to the CDRB at a future meeting. Chairperson Olson asked if staff could bring additional information back from the city attorney with recommendations on how to handle the Myth nightclub sign? Board member Ledvina said he wasn't sure this was anything the CDRB could deal with. He thought this was something city staff would have to deal with. This sign at the Myth is an enforcement issue and is out of the realm of the CDRB. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 19 Chairperson Olson respectively disagreed. The CDRB is an advisory group to the city council regarding the sign code and she believes this falls into the board's view. The CDRB should make a recommendation to the city council on this issue. She didn't think she could come up with the appropriate language tonight. She asked if the city recommends the Myth remove the large electronic reader board sign? Do we recommend that the sign be relocated so it's not near the roadway? Do we ask that the sign be mounted on the building instead of as a pylon sign near the road? Ms. Finwall said if the city council decides that type of sign should not have been allowed for the Myth and that the Myth should obtain a variance the CDRB would review this item again. Chairperson Olson said because the Myth sign exists already, would the variance be approved? Ms. Finwall said a variance should be approved based on hardship and she thinks it's a hardship to have a sign this size and value approved and installed and then for the city to say you have to take it down. Chairperson Olson said it seems incredibly unfair for surrounding businesses in Maplewood to see the Myth sign exist and then the city tells applicants they can't have an electronic reader board sign with two lines of text as requested by Plaza TV. Board member Schurke said regarding the topic of electronic reader board signage, the role of the CDRB is to guard the aesthetics in the City of Maplewood. The contrast between a white board with magnetic letters and numbers on it and an electronic reader board sign both equal eye pollution to him and he would prefer not to see either of them. But the city has a history of things that were already approved. Now the city has to decide what to do now that the Myth sign has been approved and what can the city do about it now. He would prefer not to spend more time discussing electronic signs. Chairperson Olson said she would respectively disagree. She would like to see clarifications made to the existing and proposed sign code. Ms. Finwall said staff will bring proposed language back to the CDRB to help clarify these items in the proposed draft sign code because staff believes this warrants clarification and this can be discussed at a future CDRB meeting. Board member Shankar said keep in mind that any backlit static sign like the Best Buy sign is also considered an electronic sign. Chairperson Olson said if the images were "still" on the electronic sign at the Myth that might be acceptable. Right now there is a tremendous amount of movement on the Myth sign. VII. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS No visitors present. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 20 VIII. BOARD PRESENTATIONS a. Special City Council Meeting, April 18, 2006, Gladstone Redevelopment Concept Plan Chairperson Olson said the meeting was held at the Maplewood Community Center in the theatre and began around 6:30 p.m. The Maplewood residents spoke first, and then the different boards and commissions spoke. No decisions or recommendations were made by the city council. The Master Plan for 800 units was recommended, there was a report for a majority vote by three members of the PC for between 600-700 units. The Gladstone residents preferred the 400 unit plan. The city council decided they would need to have a retreat to make a final decision and weigh the information the city council received regarding the Gladstone Redevelopment Plan. b. Open space clean up discussion Board member Schurke said he is aware of at least two open space parcels that the City of Maplewood owns, both of which are in need of minor clean up. He isn't sure if there is environmental clean up needed but there is visual contamination on these properties with debris left over from when these parcels were purchased. At the April 18, 2006, Gladstone meeting AI Singer spoke about the open space in Maplewood. Board member Schurke said he was surprised there were no funds set aside for clean up of open space in Maplewood. He lives near one of the parcels at the intersection of Roselawn Avenue and Arcade Street where there is debris and he has heard complaints from Maplewood residents. The other parcel is on the east side of Maplewood and the parcel has barrels and other things on the property. He thinks it would be a good effort on the part of Maplewood to clean up those parcels. With future developments in Maplewood the city could earmark funds to save money to do maintenance on open space properties in Maplewood. He is not sure how to handle this recommendation or who it should be passed on to but he recommends funding be set aside to do this clean up. Chairperson Olson said this was a huge area of discussion for the Gladstone Redevelopment task force. She would recommend that Board member Schurke contact the Open Space Committee and Parks Commission on his own. She didn't know what the final recommendation was regarding the clean up. That was one of the reasons the issue regarding the sale of the Savanna kept coming back. One of the proposals was for funds from the sale of the Savanna could then be funneled in to create a permanent endowment for the parks and open space. That did not go over very well but this issue has been discussed several times. Ms. Finwall said the city does fund some maintenance and upkeep through the city's park access charge (PAC) which is a park charge on all new home building permits in the City of Maplewood. Ms. Finwall said the city council recently approved the (PAC) fee to be raised, because it had not been raised in many years. There just isn't a specific clean up fund for open space. The city's naturalist and environmental person are looking at all the options for grants regarding open space in the City of Maplewood. Community Design Review Board Minutes 4-25-2006 21 IX. STAFF PRESENTATIONS a. Board member Shankar will represent the CORB at the May 8, 2006, city council meeting - Items to be discussed include the Sign Code Interpretation and Electronic Reader Boards b. Planning Commission and CDRB Responsibilities and Duties - Possible Meeting Ms. Finwall said this item was placed on the agenda based on conversations between a planning commissioner and a board member and the overlapping of discussion items at their meetings. Chairperson Olson said this came up in the annual report to the city council. One of the items the CDRB would discuss in the upcoming year would be to review the parking regulations. Chairperson Olson said in a discussion with a planning commissioner they said they would also be discussing that. She volunteered to go to a planning commission meeting to discuss what the CDRB reviews for parking. She would like someone from the PC to discuss with the CDRB what the PC reviews for parking. Ms. Finwall wasn't sure what the final decision was at the PC meeting. The recording secretary said she thought staff was going to compile a list of items the PC had concerns about asked if city staff for the CDRB could do the same. Then the two chairpersons could have a separate meeting to discuss the items rather than trying to get a joint meeting together between the PC and the CDRB. Ms. Finwall said she would follow up on this and bring it back to the CDRB at a later date. X. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 8:20 p.m.