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HomeMy WebLinkAbout04/03/2006 MAPLEWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION Mondav, April 3. 2006. 7:00 PM City Hall Council Chambers 1830 County Road BEast 1. Call to Order 2. Roll Call 3. Approval of Agenda 4. Approval of Minutes a. March 20, 2006 5. Public Hearings None 6. New Business None 7. Unfinished Business a. Alternative Gladstone Neighborhood Redevelopment Plan Review (PC Members - Please bring your materials and questionnaires from the last meeting) 8. Visitor Presentations 9. Commission Presentations March 27 Council Meeting: Mr. Grover April 10 Council Meeting: Mr. Yarwood April 18 Special Council Meeting:?? April 24 Council Meeting: Mr. Pearson 1 O. Staff Presentations 11. Adjoumment MINUTES OF THE MAPLEWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION 1830 COUNTY ROAD BEAST, MAPLEWOOD, MINNESOTA MONDAY, APRIL 3, 2006 I. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Fischer called the meeting to order at 7:12 p.m. II. ROLL CALL Vice-Chairperson Tushar Desai Commissioner Mary Dierich Chairperson Lorraine Fischer Commissioner Michael Grover Commissioner Harland Hess Commissioner Jim Kaczrowski Commissioner Gary Pearson Commissioner Dale Trippler Commissioner Jeremy Yarwood Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Melinda Coleman, Assistant City Manager Chuck Ahl, Public Works Director Ken Roberts, Planner Lisa Kroll, Recording Secretary Staff Present: III. APPROVAL OF AGENDA Commissioner Pearson moved to approve the agenda. Commissioner Trippler seconded. The motion passed. IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Ayes - Desai, Dierich, Fischer, Grover, Hess, Kaczrowski, Pearson, Trippler, Yarwood Approval of the planning commission minutes for March 20, 2006. Commissioner Trippler had clarifications or changes to the minutes on pages 4, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14,17, and 18. On page 4, in the seventh paragraph, second line, first word, change the word property to properlY. On page 11, in the second paragraph, first line, change the word \ffiit to plan. On page 12, in the second paragraph, first word, change impervious to pervious. On page 12, in the third paragraph, third line, change the word pavers to pervious surfaces. In the fifth paragraph, third line, insert the word also after that would. In the seventh paragraph, third line, insert the word variance after the word setback in the second line. On page 14, in the seventh paragraph, eighth line, change the word location to intersection. On page 17, in the third paragraph, fourth line, change the word are to area. On page 18, in the second paragraph, first line, add the word densitv after the word site, and change the word aGFeS to units. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -2- Chairperson Fischer had clarifications or changes to the minutes on pages 4, 10, 13,20, and 21. On page 4, in the eighth paragraph, first line, last word, change the word verses to versys. On page 10, in the ninth paragraph, first line, change the word understand to understandinq. On page 13, in the first paragraph, first line, change the word verses to verS]ds. On page 20, third paragraph, second line, the sentence needed to be reworded: Because the Park and Recreation Department had not been in contact with citv staff, staff was not sure if there would ever be a trail svstem put in or not. On page 21, in the first line, insert the word be discussed. On line 3, after the word Wisconsin, delete so they and add Menards. In item f., line 4, delete the word BoaF€l and add CDRB member Linda Olson. In item g., in the fourth paragraph, second line, add the word l! after the word in. Commissioner Trippler moved to approve the planning commission minutes for March 20, 2006, as amended. Commissioner Grover seconded. Ayes - Desai, Fischer, Grover, Hess, Kaczrowski, Pearson, Trippler Yarwood Abstention - Dierich V. PUBLIC HEARING None. VI. NEW BUSINESS None. VII. UNFINISHED BUSINESS a. Alternative Gladstone Neighborhood Redevelopment Plan Review (7:23 - 8:36 p.m.) Dale Trippler gave a handout to the planning commission prior to the Gladstone Redevelopment discussion. Mr. Roberts said the purpose of this meeting is for the planning commission to discuss the two different Gladstone Redevelopment plans and forward a recommendation to the city council at the special Gladstone meeting on Tuesday, April 18, 2006, at 7:00 p.m. The Planning Commission will need a representative to speak on behalf of the planning commission at that meeting. Commissioner Dierich asked if staff could compare the density between the Gladstone Redevelopment plan of 490 units to the number of units in the New Century development, Legacy Village development, and the future Carver Crossing development so she could get a feel for the differences in the density? Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -3- Mr. Roberts said the density in the Gladstone area varies, the highest density concentration would be around the roundabout and as it moves out towards the perimeters of Gladstone the intent is to have lower density to better transition into the single family homes that will remain. The Gladstone plan will have a range of 8 to 20 units per acre depending on where you were within in the site plan. The Carver Crossing development that the planning commission will see review soon will be at 4.1 units per acre, the New Century development is at about 5 or 5.5 units per acre over the PUD, and the Legacy Village development is an average of 14 to 15 units per acre. Chuck Ahl said on the Legacy Village plan there is a lot of open space combined in the development so you have compacted units and private streets. The Gladstone area doesn't have that many private streets so it's difficult to compare the two areas. Some of the Legacy Village units that are being built north of St. Johns Hospital is fairly intense there, if you compared apples to apples with the Gladstone plan, the Legacy Village development would be about 18 to 20 units per acre. Commissioner Dierich asked how many acres in size the Gladstone Redevelopment area was? Mr. Ahl said the entire redevelopment study area with trails, the right of way and open space comes to 195 acres. Some of the 195 acres has existing housing in the total because that includes the entire study area. Chairperson Fischer asked how close the streets in the area are to capacity or if the city is at comfortable tolerance levels? Mr. Ahl said Frost Avenue is a very wide road with four lanes of traffic. Typical traffic on a four lane roadway is 15,000 cars a day. Current traffic on Frost Avenue is about 7,000 cars a day so it is not even 50% capacity. The city did a traffic analysis assuming 1,000 new units when the original analysis was done so that does not double the traffic level. It has an increase to around 10,000 cars a day but it is not at the capacity. The roundabout would have been stressed under a doubling of the traffic of 13,000 cars a day assuming 1,000 housing units, but we are not close to that. Chairperson Fischer said she drove to the Legacy Village development to look at the box culvert under the power lines at Kennard Parkway and Legacy Parkway and she noticed a 15 mph traffic sign at the roundabout. She asked why that speed sign was posted at this roundabout and not at the other roundabout? Is this something new that the city is considering posting elsewhere? Mr. Ahl said the speed signs at the roundabout at Kennard Parkway and Legacy Parkway are advisory. The city advises people that 15 mph is the appropriate speed. 15 - 20 mph is what the city designs a roundabout for. At 25 mph your driving starts to feel uncomfortable and anything above that you are starting to exceed a safe operation. The 15 mph is an advised speed while driving around the roundabout. Chairperson Fischer asked if the reason there wasn't a speed sign posted at the roundabout at Frost Avenue was because it's a County Road? Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -4- Mr. Ahl said no. The roundabout at Frost Avenue is larger and can handle slightly faster speeds. One thing the city learned was there were too many signs posted there and people couldn't figure out which sign to follow. Chairperson Fischer asked if the narrow stretches or the more broad areas were higher accident rate areas? Mr. Ahl said no these areas are not higher accident rate areas until Highway 61 and Frost Avenue. At East Shore Drive the city sees as a potential problem because of the sight differences. There was a problem at Frost Avenue and English Street butthat has been taken care of after the roundabout was added. Commissioner Dierich said even if you take 700 units for the 195 acres for the Gladstone Redevelopment site, that puts the units at 2.8 units per acre. If we have a new development the Met Council has something to say about low density. She asked if the Met Council has anything to say about redevelopment? Mr. Ahl said yes the Met Council has something to say about density. The lower density plan of 490 units is something the city will have a very difficult time getting any grants for. The Met Council does not come back and say you must have a certain number of density. But they do provide financial incentives and the city would like to get Livable Community grants for projects like this but with the low unit count of 490 the city will have a very difficult time applying for grants. With the 800 unit density the city will have a much easier time applying for and getting grants. That is the type of competition the city would in for redevelopment grants. The Met Council would be supportive of the 490 units since that is a higher density than what is currently there, but the Met Council would not be "financially" supportive of the 490 units with grant money. Commissioner Dierich said it doesn't seem very fair that the rest of Maplewood would have to have a higher density than what the Gladstone area would be required to have. Not everyone is going to benefit from this redevelopment and if the city has to put tax dollars into this development it is going to come out of the Maplewood resident's pockets. She knows these decisions are all political, but why can this area push so hard to have a lesser density when the city knows they can develop a nicer development with more units and make this work for everybody. Commissioner Yarwood said it's his understanding that this area is revenue neutral and he isn't sure tax wise if this redevelopment is a tax burden on the rest of the city. Mr. Ahl said you are correct. Both plans for the 490 units and 800 units are feasible and are theoretically self supporting without city tax dollars. Commissioner Dierich said this area is a gateway to our community in Maplewood. The Gladstone area bumps up against two very nice areas. She said she is willing to support the higher density plan because it is one of the gateways to Maplewood and she thinks the city wants to put their best foot forward. If we get chinchy or cut costs on the infrastructure and amenities, we are not putting our best foot forward and we are not improving the neighborhood in the best way possible. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -5- Commissioner Dierich said when this process began she thought differently but has since changed her mind and prefers the higher density plan for the amenities and the look of the plan. Chairperson Fischer said when the final decision is made for the Gladstone area it will be a decision to weigh density and amenities and whether to have build bebo or a box culvert. There are many considerations to add up before deciding what is best for the area. Mr. Ahl said these are all value decisions. That's another reason staff provided everyone with the Gladstone questionnaire so people would have a way to measure these factors. Commissioner Dierich said she's aware nobody "wants" development in their backyard but doesn't everyone in the city have a say in what happens here? We all have density in our backyards in the twin cities. If we as a city are putting in street infrastructure she thinks the residents of Maplewood should have a say regarding this area. Commissioner Grover said excluding the St. Paul Tourist Cabins, how many units does this plan bring the number of units down to? "He said he knows both plans already include the St. Paul Tourist Cabins in the total number of units. Mr. Ahl said yes both plans include 150 units for the St. Paul Tourist Cabins. Plan A(800 units) minus 150 units equals 650 housing units and Plan B(490 units) minus 150 units equals 340 housing units. Commissioner Grover said he knows there's a developer who has shown interest in the St. Paul Tourist Cabin site. When he looks at the total number of units he purposely excludes the St. Paul Tourist Cabins from the total. He asked how many manufactured homes are currently on the St. Paul Tourist Cabin site? Melinda Coleman said about 50 manufactured homes, give or take a few. Commissioner Grover said one of the things he doesn't like about this is that there are only two plans to choose from. To him that is like having a yes plan or a no plan and personally he likes certain things from both plans. Chairperson Fischer said at the joint CDRB and HRA meeting she understood that the 490 unit plan is a riskier plan compared to the 800 unit plan which is not as risky? She also understood if people didn't care for the 490 plan but thought somewhere between the 490 unit count and the 800 unit count would be better than that is what we could recommend to the city council. Possibly as a minority decision. Mr. Ahl said that is correct. City staff provided a lower unit plan and a higher unit plan. For example, if you as a commission chose 620 units and you want certain amenities in the plan and it costs $14 million dollars in order to do that plan, then you could recommend that to the city council. It's all up to the commission and boards what they want to recommend to the city council. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -6- Commissioner Grover asked staff to provide more detail such as the risk analysis between going with the 490 units compared to the 800 units? Mr. Ahl said the risk to the city for the 800 unit plan is small. In around 3 to 5 years that plan could be implemented as proposed. The 490 unit plan comes with more of a significant risk, it will be harder to implement, it will take longer and could take 8 to 10 years to develop as funds become available, it would be more difficult to redevelop certain sites because the city doesn't have the funds available to work with developers, and it may not be as attractive for developers to move on the property. The city may have to wait for certain things such as blight to occur. You have a very good opportunity to get grant funds with the 800 unit plan and with the 490 units your risk is greater that the city wouldn't get any grant money. Ms. Coleman said the city made a submittal for Livable Community funds this year with 500 units with Mr. McLaughlin's plan and the city was turned down. There are more requests for grant money than there are funds, but part of the reason Mr. McLaughlin's plan was turned down was because it didn't have near enough density to qualify for their programs. Regarding the risk assessment, if you go with the 490 plan, the easier parcels will probably develop such as Johnson Boatworks, the storage yard, those will go because there are no structures on them and will happen easily. The difficulty will be where there are businesses that are ready to go and they have indicated to the city that they either want to reinvest in their business or relocate. The city is not going to be able to help those businesses because there is no money put in the 490 unit plan to provide financial assistance to those businesses. Then there is the cost of demolition, contamination clean up, relocation and all of those things cost so much that it isn't going to happen. Commissioner Trippler said he has spent over a year serving on the Gladstone Task Force and he would strongly recommend that the planning commission pick one plan or the other. If you start cutting corners and nickel and dime things, this plan will never be finalized because we will be going back and forth. The task force sat down and tried to figure out what they wanted the Gladstone area to look like. If you look at the Gladstone plan dated November 14, 2005, on page 3-1 through 3-2, it talks about the vision the task force had, the guiding principles and the look of the neighborhood and they used this vision to get a better handle on what amenities the task force would like to see and how to make this vision happen. Plan B or the Bartol plan set the number of units and then took a look at the amenities and started cutting amenities until they got down to the dollar amount that fit with the number of units. To him that doesn't include a vision, doesn't have principles and is a backwards way of planning. The task force paired down the amenities from $24 million to $18 million and then they said if you start pairing down anything more from this plan it's either not going to be any different than what exists or it will be so poorly done that it won't be attractive. If the area is not attractive you won't sell the units and if you don't sell the units, the area is going to fail. One example is whether to build the bebo versus the box culvert. When the Gladstone task force looked at the bowling alley property they thought those units would be attractive to senior citizens. The Savanna could be a good way to draw people to the area but it can only be attractive to people if they can get to and utilize the Savanna. If you have ever been through a box culvert, it is very restrictive and it is not very attractive. He would not want to go through the box culvert unless he was on a 10 speed bike. If you put in a box culvert, it won't be attractive to families with young children or to senior citizens. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -7- If you don't have paved trails on the Savanna, and you use wood chips to save money, older people will not be able to use the trails which won't be an attractive feature in order to draw people to live here and it will lose its appeal. Commissioner Trippler asked if he should read his comment sheet that he provided the commission with aloud so they would be included in the minutes for the record. Ms. Coleman said those comments could be included in the minutes so everyone would have the comments available to them. The recording secretary inserted the comments in the minutes below. Date: April 3, 2006 To: Maplewood Planning Commission From: Dale Trippler, Planning Commissioner Subject: Alternative Gladstone Neighborhood Redevelopment Plan Review I respectfully submit the following reasons why the Alternative Plan should not be recommended to the city council. I find the Alternative Plan deficient in the following areas: 1. It has eliminated commercial space for the bowling alley, liquor store, Laundromat, Mike's LP, the pet groomer shop, boat works, Moose Lodge, Hmong Funeral Home, and several other viable businesses in the Gladstone area. One of the universal elements cited by citizens and the Task Force was to provide for existing businesses that wanted to remain in the area. Except for Richard's, the bakery, and the barbershop, that seems to be a huge missing piece. In addition, the alternative plan does not provide space for any new businesses to move in like restaurants, a coffee shop, etc. 2. It has cut the street budget to the point of not making enough improvements to make any real difference. The changes will not significantly change the look of Gladstone as it appears today. 3. The budget for improving the Savanna and building trails and pathways is reduced to the point where elderly people may not be able to use most of the amenities. The box tunnel, instead of the Bebo, would be far less attractive to the elderly and to families out for a walk. The savanna and trails are viewed as one of the major reasons why elderly people might be interested in buying and living in the units north of Frost and east of English. If the elderly can't get to the Savanna and can't use the trails, a significant selling point is lost. 4. The alternative plan as I view it packs so many small units into the available space that the openness of the Master Plan is gone. By limiting the height of buildings to no more than 2 stories, the housing in the Maplewood Bowl area and along English Street is completely crammed. There is almost no room for yards, play areas, or commons. The Alternative Plan may achieve its goal of limiting the number of units, but it does so at the expense of packing housing into a small area. This is exactly what many people in the Gladstone area said they DID NOT WANT. 5. Unlike the Task Force Master Plan, which is fully documented and spelled out in detail, I have very little idea about most of what the Alternative Plan is purposing, so it is impossible to fully and completely evaluate it. From the "Plan B" drawing in our packet, I don't like any of it. In my opinion, moving ahead with the Alternative Plan would be worse than doing nothing at all because I believe the Alternative Plan is doomed to fail before it even begins. And I would not want to see anyone invest $11 million on a failure. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -8- 6. The Master Plan is based on guiding principals, goals and objectives that ALL 20 members of the Gladstone Task Force agreed to (see pages 3-1 through 3-2 in the Draft Gladstone Neighborhood Redevelopment Plan dated November 14, 2005. The Master Plan is the plan the Task Force members felt had the best chance of fulfilling our goals and objectives for what we think Gladstone should look like when the plan is fully implemented. The Alternative Plan is based on a set number of units and everything else is modified to achieve that goal. Most members of the Task Force think the Alternative Plan will result in Gladstone looking pretty much like it does now with very little chance of success. Commissioner Trippler said I think you should know at the last Gladstone Task Force meeting rejected the Alternative/Bartol Plan. The Task Force members overwhelmingly support the Master Plan. In my opinion the Alternative/Bartol Plan was thrown together by one (or more likely a few individuals) who are catering to their own special interest group, and does NOT represent the best interests of the City of Maplewood. Sincerely, Dale Trippler, Planning Commission Commissioner Trippler said he wanted everyone to know that the task force overwhelmingly supported the Master Plan twice. Even though the city council never looked at the Master Plan because the Bartol plan took precedence over it, at the end of March, the majority of the task force members overwhelmingly accepted the Master Plan (800 units) and the majority declined the Alternative Plan (490 units). There were two people on the task force that voted for the Alternative Plan (490 units). He said the city did a very good job ensuring that the Gladstone Task Force was a balance of people. Those people on the task force included residents from the Gladstone area, people throughout the city, from the Gladstone Coalition, people representing boards and commissions, and business members and property owners, so the task force represented a good cross section of the community on this redevelopment plan that took place over 18 months. Commissioner Yarwood said even though the city provided the worksheet, at this stage he does not feel qualified to make even small changes to the plan because there are people that have a lot more invested in this and have a lot deeper understanding of the issues ofthe area. It's important to pick one plan or the other. He doesn't want to see a half baked plan go through. This is a chance for Maplewood to make a statement. To him that means recommending the Master Plan (800 units) to the city council. There has been some discussion regarding the misconception that higher density means higher crime. That is a red herring, statistics stand behind that. There is an important fact in doing research and that is correlation does not necessarily equal causation. This is particularly true for the high density idea correlating with crime. That has more to do with price point and the types of development that we are looking at which will attract and create the type of community that will be healthy, low crime and will look very nice. He strongly supports the Master Plan (800 units) and he hopes the planning commission speaks in a unanimous voice to make this heard to the city council. This is very important to him. Chairperson Fischer asked Mr. Ahl if he could go through some of the cost reductions that could be made if the commission were to decide to go with a number of units somewhere between the 490 unit count and the 800 unit count? Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -9- Mr. Ahl said shortening the length of the area to be redeveloped can be a cost reduction. Instead of extending the improvements on Frost Avenue all the way to Hazelwood Street you could stop at Ide Street. Improvements on English Street could not go as far to the south so the improvements would be reduced significantly. Originally there was a street extended between Clarence Street and English Street near the Bruce Vento trail south and that street is no longer in the improvement plan and in fact that area is not in the 490 unit plan any longer. Mr. Ahl said there are areas in the 800 unit plan that is not identified in the 490 unit plan. Those are single family homes that were identified as possibly being redeveloped. The other improvements related to scale are streetscape improvements rated 1 through 4. The higher the rating the more extreme the streetscape improvements are and the lower the rating is for the very basic improvements. In the Park and Recreation improvements there would be a savings of $1.6 million between choosing to build the bebo versus the box culvert. There was a $750,000 reduction in the overall park improvements to the Savanna, reduction in grading, removal of a plaza and park area and reduced grading at Flicek Park. Commissioner Trippler said he would like the record to reflect that when he was campaigning for city council, people said the 800 unit plan would have way too much concentration. He would like the commissioners to take a look at the diagram in the packet in pencil. If you compare the two and look at the area that is north of the Savanna and look at the housing that is packed in there because the housing height is limited to no more than two stories. Compare that to the openness the task force tried to maintain with buildings more than two stories in height to allow for more green space or open space for people to enjoy. The density may be higher and the height of the buildings may be taller but it gives the feeling for more space for people to enjoy. The Bartol plan or the Alternative plan with 490 units shows everything at two stories or less and everything is packed in tightly and there is very little green space. That is exactly what people said they did not want when he spoke to them while campaigning. People said they wanted the existing businesses to stay if they wanted to. Neither plan A nor plan B is going to force any business out. The Bartol plan only shows 10,000 square feet for commercial space. That would only allow for Richard's Market, the barbershop and the Maplewood Bakery. There is nothing provided in the plan for the other Gladstone businesses. Commissioner Grover asked if it was fair to compare the two schematic drawings? He also asked if the Bartol plan limits the height of the buildings to two stories? Mr. Ahl said yes the Bartol plan has a height limit of the buildings. There were a few units that could go to three stories in order to achieve the density, but the intent was for the fewest number of units possible. Plan B (490 units) started to get into site planning, how many units, the height of the units and the layout of the site. Plan A (800 units) was clearly a concept of potential. Staff is suggesting for us to make a recommendation one way or the other. It is time to make a final decision so people can move on and move forward with things. The public hearing will be on Tuesday, April 18, 2006, at 7:00 p.m. Commissioner Grover said given that information, can a plan such as this specify heights of buildings and other site plan issues since the planning commission will be dealing with zoning changes? Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -10- Mr. Ahl said the city is going to be involved significantly with either one of these plans. However, the city involvement will be less with the 490 unit plan. With the 490 unit plan it will difficult to control things with zoning rules and zoning controls, it is much easier to control things when there is a financial stake. When the city is involved financially you can specifically control what happens on a property. With a higher unit count such as the 800 unit plan, you can have more financial control and can control what types of commercial businesses are put in. Where it is going to be difficult is trying to put full zoning controls on to get the building quality and zoning types and uses you want. Commissioner Grover said he thought the city couldn't force builders to stay to a certain unit count. Mr. Ahl said the intent "is" to control the unit count. To find a way to put some type of zoning controls on the properties and make sure that exists. Mr. Ahl said a three story building is all that is allowed by code without a conditional use permit (CUP). Mr. Roberts said correct. The city envisions the city council approve a plan, assuming they pick either plan A or plan B; the city would then have to look at putting together new land use controls or zoning standards such as what happened with the Hillcrest area. It may become an overlay district. The city would set design standards, set height limits and set architectural standards for that area to make sure the plan gets implemented as envisioned. So that will take more work. Hopefully some of what was adopted in the Hillcrest area could translate to this area, but not necessarily all of it. What ever master plan is adopted, the city can make it work and have the controls set so everyone that would come in would know these are the rules you have to follow in this Gladstone area. Commissioner Dierich said in thinking about the Alternative Plan (490 units) those homes are going to be smaller and will be less in value compared to other developments in the city that have been built. To her that represents a certain type of person that may not be able to afford a nicer place to live and maybe won't have the money to maintain their property. Are those the type of people you want to draw to this area as your neighbors? Holding the quality and the property value will happen with the 800 unit plan. In today's market you can't build a big house well because you can't have a lot of square footage and still stay under $200,000. It's not possible anymore. By going with condominiums or town homes, you can raise the quality of the construction and the type of home and it can still be affordable. Affordable, at least according to the Met Council's standards. Density doesn't necessarily equal ugly, or not livable. She said she was just down in Savannah, Georgia, where there housing is very dense and basically feels like one house is right on top of the other because the houses are so close together. Charleston, South Carolina, has the same type of housing. These areas are two of the most charming cities she has ever seen in her life. So if you have a good plan with high density it can be a very nice development. Everything is a process. There will be a process for the new Carver Crossing are in south Maplewood. There was a process with Legacy Village and the New Century development and now there will be a process with the Gladstone area. The process is to get feedback from everybody and the city has gotten wonderful feedback for this development plan over the past 18 months. This has been as much open government as you can get and many people participated in this process. The planning commission should give a recommendation based on what we know and see in front of us. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -11- Commissioner Hess said he likes the idea of having a unit count somewhere between 490 and 800 units. He said according to the results of the Gladstone public meeting it appears the public prefers the lower unit count. He thinks it would be nicer to have more commercial business in the plan to help with the tax base to generate more revenue. Commissioner Grover said he has had a problem with the plan all along and doesn't necessarily agree with one plan or the other. Overall the Gladstone Task Force, the consultants and the city did a fine job putting the plans together but that doesn't mean he has to like one plan orthe other. He likes things from both plans. You can still have an opinion that certain things are not a good use of public money or where the city should be using their time. He agrees with Commissioner Trippler that we need to move on with this. It has been a long time coming and people want to move on with their lives. He likes a longer list of things to pick and choose from. He agrees whatever comes from this plan, whether or not he agrees to vote "with" it or "against" it. He thinks there are certain things like the streetscape that do not need to extend this far. There are things like building the bebo versus building the box culvert, to him that is a no brainer decision. He personally doesn't want to walk through a box culvert. There is a wise investment to be made regarding that. Anything to do with the park, Savanna and the trails, which are the amenities to that area are very important decisions to make. The park and the trails are the amenities so if we are to focus any of the public dollars they should be focused on these amenities. If we aren't going to focus on those amenities they aren't going to attract developers to build a nice development. He doesn't think we should extend the streetscape this far but there are some things that he would agree that the city would be selling themselves short on for things such as a box culvert or other things like that which are problematic to him. Chairperson Fischer said she would disagree. If a box culvert is good enough for the Legacy Village development why isn't it good enough to build in the Gladstone area? She thought she understood the planning commission could have a first choice and a second choice regarding the plans. Mr. Ahl and Ms. Coleman said that the planning commission can recommend what ever the commission wanted and it will be passed onto the city council. Commissioner Grover asked Mr. Ahl what connects to the other side of the box culvert at the Legacy Village development? In this area we would be connecting a major regional park trail to the Savanna which is a pretty large open space. This is the area we want the center of the neighborhood to be. Mr. Ahl said the box culvert in Legacy Village connects to the Lakes Link trail up to the Bruce Vento trail and will eventually go over to Century Avenue and up around White Bear Lake. Ms. Coleman said the box culvert and that connection was made almost at the completion of the zoning and land use approvals. It was an after thought and during the park planning process the city renegotiated, splitting the cost with the developer over some park land and other things that weren't part of the first planning process and came as an after thought. The city learned as the city went along. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -12- Mr. Ahl said the box culvert in Legacy Village is under a much narrower street and is about 60 feet long. The box culvert for the Gladstone area would be around 120 feet long. If you've ever been to the Shoreview Community Center and driven down the five lanes of traffic on Highway 96 there is a box culvert underneath Highway 96 which is the same size as this box culvert would be. It meets the industry standards and is very acceptable. These amenities are all value decisions that will be decided by the city council after the groups make their recommendations. Mr. Ahl said he heard someone say they weren't sure they wanted to take their family through a box culvert; that is a value decision that the city staff can't make. The city would make sure there is enough light inside. If you ask the question will the bebo be a nicer structure and would it cost more money; absolutely. Commissioner Trippler asked if the length of a box culvert make it acceptable or not acceptable? The longer the box culvert, the more enclosed it feels, the shorter it is the more comfortable you feel being inside a box culvert. Mr. Ahl said when you have a box culvert 100 feet in length you don't have enough natural light from end to end so you have to bring in artificial light to the center of the box culvert. If you have a shorter box culvert such as 60 foot culvert there is usually enough natural light. Commissioner Trippler said there are many businesses and people within the Gladstone area who would really like the city to make a decision and get moving on this so these businesses can decide if they are going to stay, go or redevelop or not. One of the problems he sees with recommending three or four different options to the city council is that it will prolong the process. Although he said he believes the city council already knows how they are going to vote anyway. The planning commission should make a decision and send it to the city council and let the city council make the final decision. Let's not drag this out any longer for the people in the Gladstone area. Commissioner Dierich said this process is like building a house. The task force has decided the essential things, the city has put a price tag on those things, once people have committed to this and someone changes things, you start the process all over again. Vote yes or no, 490 or 800 units. Then if the city has to start the process over again then we start the process all over again. But let that be on the city council's shoulders to spend money doing this process all over again. The Gladstone Task Force has done their work. They started off at 1 ,000 units and narrowed it down to 800 units. Then a request came in from the city council to come up with for a lesser unit count (490 units) with fewer amenities to see what the cost could be reduced to. When you go through all the information, this process doesn't have to be second guessed. Chairperson Fischer asked if the city council should have to be limited to 490 units or 800 units? She doesn't think so. She thinks the 490 unit count is too risky and if the city council can't be comfortable with the 800 unit count which is less risky then she would recommend a number in between? Commissioner Dierich said the city council is going to make a decision either way regardless if you give them another option or not. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -13- Ms. Coleman said Commissioner Dierich is correct; the city council is going to make the final decision either way. At the other meetings staff has told the boards and commissions they should make a recommendation and if everyone can't agree with the decision there can be a minority report given as well. Then the information is public record and the city council can take the information and make their final decision from all the compiled information offered. Commissioner Desai said in the interest of time he won't echo all the comments that have been made. He said he is more of a visual person and after reviewing the information that was given to him he took the opportunity to go visit some of the suburbs that are doing similar type of work on the west end of town. Commissioner Desai said he had a chance to see a couple of communities outside of the twin cities area and he is convinced to the master plan (800 units) is the plan to choose. It has the amenities people are likely to look for when they are looking to purchase property. He has already seen it happening in other areas where the city went the cheaper route with the lesser amenities. The area starts off looking good and begins to look tired and old which has been happening in areas that are only two to three years old. He would prefer to have more retail space. Personally if he was looking for a home he would want retail close to him. There is going to be walking paths and sidewalks and people are going to use them to get to a coffee shop, retail store, restaurant etc. to stay in their community. But you have to have the retail present for people to walk to first. Commissioner Pearson said normally he isn't fond of high density but in this case he feels the master plan or higher density is the way to go. Plan B affords a continuation at the junction of Frost and English with the funeral home which he believes is a big detraction from getting anything moving on this development. The closest thing to this plan is the St Louis Park development called Excelsior on Grand. They have an intersection like this roundabout that is proposed, which is the anchor to the area, and they have three story buildings. You need the higher investment that you would have with the 800 units to be sure you get the appropriate control and that you are able to buyout the businesses. This is not going to be an eminent domain project no matter what has been reported. It will probably be more expensive to obtain properties than what has been allocated. This area will have to have the utilities buried and the farther you do that along Frost Avenue the more attractive the development will be. The addition of the trees and landscaping will add a lot to the area. When you picture a park for example, before the trees are planted and in bloom, think of how plain it looks. Once the trees are matured and developed, it will really add to the development. He is less concerned about whether a bebo or a box culvert is built. Neither the bebo or the box culvert will be lit very well from natural light and that is a necessity. He would prefer to have around 600 units but he believes you have to go with the master plan with the higher density number to make sure you have the necessary public funds to make this area successful. He also believes the roundabout at Frost Avenue and English will have to be the anchor of this whole area. Commissioner Kaczrowski said he prefers the master plan (800 units), he believes you need to revitalize the area and the amenities are necessary to make this area look nice. He agrees the utilities need to be buried and he doesn't want to see corners cut to make this a nice development. He pretty much agrees with the other comments that were made by everybody else. Chairperson Fischer asked if there was a motion that carried could we add a minority report? Ms. Coleman said yes. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -14- Commissioner Trippler moved to recommend to the city council approval of the Master Plan (800 unit plan) forthe Gladstone Redevelopment area put forth by the Gladstone Task Force. Commissioner Pearson seconded. Ayes - Desai, Dierich, Fischer, Grover, Hess, Kaczrowski, Pearson, Trippler, Yarwood The motion passed. Chairperson Fischer, Commissioner Grover and Commissioner Hess would like it noted for the record that they are not in favor of plan B (490 unit) plan but would be agreeable to looking at an alternative unit count somewhere between 490 and 800 units (such as a 600 unit plan) along with a little more flexibility with the amenities. They represent the minority report. Commissioner Grover moved to appoint Commissioner Trippler to be the planning commission representative at the April 18, 2006, city council meeting. Commissioner Pearson seconded. Ayes - Desai, Fischer, Grover, Hess, Kaczrowski, Pearson, Trippler, Yarwood Nay - Dierich Commissioner Dierich said she would recommend there be more than one person as the representative. The city council should hear from a more neutral voice, there is enough tension around this plan and she believes someone else should be represent the minority report at the April 18, 2006, city council meeting. Ms. Coleman said this will be a public meeting and everyone from the planning commission as well as the other groups of people are welcome to give their opinion. Commissioner Grover said he would be happy to present the minority report at the April 18, 2006, city council meeting. The motion passed. VIII. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS None. IX. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS a. Mr. Grover was the planning commission representative at the March 27, 2006, city council meeting. Items to discuss included the second reading of the Nonconforming Use Ordinance Amendment and Menards at 2280 Maplewood Drive for a conditional use permit revision and the Code Amendment for Nonconforming Uses which was passed by the city council along with the recommendation by the CDRB for a rainwater garden. Planning Commission Minutes of 04-03-06 -15- b. Mr. Yarwood was scheduled to be the planning commission representative at the April 10, 2006, city council meeting, however, there are no planning commission items to discuss. c. Tuesday, April 18, 2006, is the special city council meeting to discuss the Gladstone Redevelopment Plan. Dale Trippler will be the Planning Commission Representative reporting to the city council, and Michael Grover will present the minority report. d. Mr. Pearson will be the planning commission representative at the April 24, 2006, city council meeting. At this time staff is unsure if there will be any planning commission items to discuss. Commissioner Dierich commended Chuck Ahl and Melinda Coleman and city staff for the hard work and efforts made during the past 18 months for the Gladstone Redevelopment plan. Commissioner Dierich thanked Chuck Ahl and Ken Roberts for attending the neighborhood meeting for the future Carver Crossing development in south Maplewood. X. STAFF PRESENTATIONS Mr. Roberts reported to the planning commission that staff recently received the application and plans for the Carver Crossing development. This item will be discussed during the PC meeting tentatively scheduled for Monday, May 1, 2006. This will also be a public hearing. XI. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 8:40 p.m.