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HomeMy WebLinkAbout12/21/1998MAPLEWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION Monday, December 21, 1998 7:00 PM City Hall Council Chambers 1830 County Road B East 1. Call to Order 2. Roll Call 3. Approval of Minutes November 2, 1998 4. Approval of Agenda o Public Hearings A. Ramsey County Family Service Center (Van Dyke Street - Northeast of the Ramsey County Nursing Home) 1. Comprehensive Plan Change (Park to Government) 2. Conditional Use Permit 6. New Business A. Motor Fuel Station Ordinance Amendment 7. Visitor Presentations 8. Commission Presentations A. November 9 Council Meeting: Mr. Trippler B. November 23 Council Meeting: Mr. Mueller C. December 14 Council Meeting: Mr. Ledvina D. December 28 Council Meeting: Mr. Thompson E. January 11 Council Meeting: Mr. Rossbach 9. Staff Presentations A. Commission Reappointments 10. Adjournment MINUTES OF THE MAPLEWOOD PLANNING COMMISSION '1830 COUNTY ROAD B EAST, MAPLEWOOD, MINNESOTA DECEMBER 21, 1998 I, CALLTO ORDER Chairperson Fischer called the meeting to order at 7:08 p.m. II. ROLL CALL Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner Lorraine Fischer Present Jack Frost Present Matt Ledvina Absent Paul Mueller Absent Gary Pearson Present William Rossbach Present Michael Seeber Absent Milo Thompson Present Dale Trippler Present III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES November 2, 1998 Commissioner Rossbach moved approval of the minutes of November 2, 1998, as submitted. Commissioner Frost seconded. Ayes--all The motion passed. IV. APPROVAL OFAGENDA Ken Roberts, associate planner, said he was asked by Mark Nelson, the applicant in Agenda Item 6.A. if that item could be considered before Item 5.A. Chairperson Fischer noted that there were a number of people in attendance for Item 5.A. and asked for a decision from the commission. Commissioner Rossbach moved approval of the agenda as submitted. Commissioner Pearson seconded. Ayes--all The motion passed. V. PUBLIC HEARINGS Ramsey County Family Service Center (Van Dyke Street--Northeast of the Ramsey County Nursing Home): Comprehensive Plan Change (Park to Government) and Conditional Use Permit Ken Roberts, associate planner, introduced the proposal. He then turned the floor over to the Ramsey County staff and their representatives for further background, more information and discussion. Don Leier, an architect with SMMA ( the designer of the facility), expanded on the staff report. He felt the site for the proposed facility was positioned to make the least impact on the nursing home, the county parks building, and the neighborhood. He said a portion of the existing nursing home parking lot will be used for the facility, and a new parking area north of this Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -2- will be provided for the nursing home staff. One row of parking is also being taken from the Aldrich Arena overflow lot and this area will be restriped. Mr. Leier thought this family center would have very little impact on the parking and on White Bear Avenue and the neighborhood. He described the center as a "rather small facility, 20,000 square feet, single-story building, slab on grade, 21 rooms." Mr. Leier confirmed that one of the directions the architect was given was to design the facility so that if this use were discontinued the building could be utilized for assisted living or additional space for the existing nursing home. He noted construction features, i.e. all rooms have their own bathrooms, that would make it readily adaptable. Mary Nelson, a financial assistance manager for Ramsey County Human Services, talked about the program that would operate from this building. According to Ms. Nelson, it will be a facility for mothers and children/families that are temporarily homeless. They will be here while permanent housing is found for them. Commissioner Frost asked what "primarily" meant when the staff report said the facility would "primarily serve women and children." Ms. Nelson responded that, in addition to the women and children served here, up to ten single women, and occasionally fathers or men who are part of a family could also reside here. Men who are not part of a family will not be housed at the facility. The rooms allotted for single women are set up for double occupancy. The other sixteen rooms are designed for maximum flexibility by the use of interconnecting doors. She said the maximum length of time for residence here is 30 days but the average is much shorter. She said the average in 1997 was about 12 days. Ms. Nelson said 85 percent of the children served here are 12 years of age or younger and approximately two-thirds of the people using the facility are children. She said one of the primary rules of this facility is that the children must be in school. Ms. Nelson hoped to have discussion with both the Saint Paul and Maplewood school districts about making a transition from the Title 1 school program that currently operates in downtown Saint Paul (where the facility is now located) and perhaps continue this program. She said the preference is to do whatever is least disruptive for children. Ms. Nelson said 63 percent of the families who stay in this facility are actually from Ramsey County. The other 37 percent are primarily from outside the state of Minnesota. According to Ms Nelson, they are mostly people who are coming here for better opportunities-either for jobs, education, or safety for their families. Commissioner Thompson asked about a concern he had heard in regard to "the outside presence of unhappy suitors or unhappy spouses." Ms. Nelson said, at the current facility in downtown Saint Paul, it is difficult to distinguish the motive of persons in the vicinity of the center. She said the people in the facility are not allowed to have visitors so there is no reason for someone to be "hanging around outside this facility." She felt that in this Maplewood location it would very apparent, and unacceptable, if people were loitering. There will be cameras on the outside of the building to watch for this. Ms. Nelson said they have met with people involved in a project through the Saint Paul Police Department that deals with crime prevention and how buildings are built. Design details such as landscaping, windows, and lighting were covered. Commissioner Rossbach asked if funding for this center would come from any additional taxes, levies, bonds, etc. for either Maplewood or Ramsey County residents. Ms. Nelson addressed the costs of running the facility. She said a blend of county, state, and federal funds are used to pay for the people staying here. An attempt is made to use as little county money as possible. Ms. Nelson did not anticipate any change in the cost to the county of running this center because it will not be any larger than the current facility. She thought there might even be savings because of how the facility will be run and the ability to share maintenance with other county buildings on the property. Ms. Nelson said the facility is staffed 24 hours per day, seven days a week, 365 days a year with a least two staff members. During the day there are many more people working there. Commissioner Trippler referred to the various individual comments included with the staff report, Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -3- and asked about the numerous 911 calls (397) that were made last year. He added that the staff report only indicated four. Ms Nelson clarified this by saying the Lowry Family Shelter takes up two floors of a building. There are six to eight additional floors that are Iow-income apartment rental housing. When the number of calls is requested from the police department, they give the number for the entire address (building). Frequently an apartment number is not attached to the report. Ms. Nelson indicated that the facility is now operated by Catholic Charities and the procedure is that anytime the police are called, an incident report must be written. She said staff pulled the incident reports for 1997 and there were four. Judy Karon, the director of community and economic development for Ramsey County, addressed the capital expenditures to develop the facility. She said all the money being used in this debt-free facility has come from the Federal Home Investment Partnership Act, HUD, a small amount of Community Development Block Grant funding used for the sidewalk, and the largest portion is money awarded through the Minnesota legislature to the Minnesota Housing and Finance Agency. Ms. Karon stated that funding for this type of housing was among the highest priority in the Minnesota Housing and Finance Agency, and they have allocated $1.7 million dollars to this development. It will be about a $3 million development. Ken Roberts referred to the discussion in the staff report on the parking. He said there are 23 new spaces being proposed that are not in the counts included in the staff report. Thus, there is a net loss of only 14 spaces. Mr. Roberts summarized the recommendations made by staff and included in the report. Chairperson Fischer noted that the area to be designated G on the map included with the staff report does not extend north to the trail as the previous Hillside Neighborhood Land Use Plan map showed. Mr. Roberts thought some lines should be added to the map to indicate that the G area covered the three county buildings on the property. He didn't think it was necessary to extend the line north to the trail since some of this was fairground property. The G designation did not include Aldrich Arena, the county park building or the golf dome. Ms. Fischer also questioned why this request was being considered by the planning commission at this time. Mr. Roberts said it was on this night during Christmas week because the county wanted to have the open house on December 7 and city staff did not want to prepare a report until after that meeting so changes, concerns, interests, etc. could be included. This planning commission meeting, December 21, was the next available meeting date. Staff felt it could not be postponed until January because a state law says cities have 60 days in which to process applications, such as this, and get them to the city council for resolution (the county did give a two-week time extension to January 25 for this). Mr. Roberts said construction must be started in April to have the facility completed by the end of the year when the downtown center closes. He felt it was "a matter of both county calendars and city calendars and how they fell into place and this is the best meeting that fit the needs of both the county and the city." Commissioner Thompson asked staff to review the reasons for denial of an application. Mr. Roberts read the reasons and associated them with this request. There were no further questions from the commissioners so Chairperson Fischer opened the item for comment from the public. Alys DuCharme, 1725 Agate Street North, commented that the data given about the site was "informative information." She thought the needs of the community, in regard to client usage, was done responsibly. She said the establishment of this site gives Maplewood an opportunity to demonstrate to the larger community that "we do value all people, especially those who are most in need." Carol Lynn, Burke Avenue East, saw no negative impact to the residents of Maplewood from this proposed home. She thought there was a need and that the location was ideal for mothers with children who are in need. Pat Henry, 1827 Kennard, said he was very Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -4- much opposed to this facility because he felt "Maplewood was being dumped on." He thought Maplewood should take care of their own people and St. Paul should do likewise. Mr. Henry felt it would cause the area to deteriorate. Leslie Lane, 1707 Stanich Place, was concerned that "there are no accountability to the people that would be utilizing the shelter." She mentioned that she had rented to out-of-state people who came from the shelter in downtown St. Paul. She said references are forged and single mothers have boyfriends that are "usually affiliated with a gang." Ms. Lane questioned the background of some of the facility residents. She said there are often underlying causes why these people are homeless. She also said the St. Paul police have a program called FORCE. Landlords are asked to call this program in reference to police calls, verification of troublesome teenagers, credit checks, and renting to anyone who has an unlawful detainer record. Ms. Lane agreed that she was most concerned with the support services being provided to the people. She said "it is not enough to pay their rent." She thought that letting 37 percent of the people reside in the facility that are not residents of Ramsey County was a very big problem. Denise Hartigan, 1235 Century Avenue, felt she was representative of the population that is served by the Family Service Center because she is a single parent and will be unemployed on January 1, 1999. She said this is not a place for convicts, but for mothers and children in need. Jean Petroski, Flandrau Street, is against the home because "per capita, Maplewood has more group homes than other areas." She felt the numerous police calls to the downtown building were for the same type of persons that have been placed in housing and not learned responsibility. She also was concerned about sheltering people from out-of-state. Commissioner Thompson spoke about the Rental Property Manager's Association that helps landlords protect themselves. Ms. Petroski said they have used other agencies to screen prospective tenants in the past. Alexandra Thompson, 1939 Flandrau Street, felt the people in the nearby Ramsey County nursing home were vulnerable and should not be exposed to some of the types of people that would be at the family center. She also thought Maplewood had been "dumped on enough" with the methadone clinic and the golf dome. Virginia Pederson, 1875 Flandrau Street, said she had frequented a coffee shop in the Lowry Building downtown. She stated that some members of the police department thought "the whole population down there was very unsavory." She was not against the shelter but was undecided. She said the area was getting "seedy" and wondered if the shelter would bring up the quality in Maplewood. Kevin Berglund, 1929 Kingston Avenue, agreed with Ms. Pederson in that he was not against the shelter but said "Ramsey County is creating a dumping ground for St. Paul's problems." He referred to the reasons for denial and felt that six of them applied to this request. He called the facility an "intake processing center for out-of-state residents." He questioned how long it takes to be a Ramsey County resident--one day or one year--and where the statistics originate. He mentioned a report that indicated 70 percent of the felonies occurring in the county are committed by persons residing in the county for less than a year. Mr. Berglund advocated using the Government Center East (the former FOK and American Center Building) downtown, where the human services department is located, for the family center. He felt the Maplewood Comprehensive Plan is a document that can be used to reject this proposal. Mr. Berglund said the city of Maplewood chose this site from three possible, the other two being the Tri-District School and the Hideaway lounge sites on County Road B in Maplewood. He claimed he was told this by Director of Community Development Melinda Coleman. Commissioner Rossbach asked if Mr. Berglund believed the Maplewood staff had the ability to tell Ramsey County where to put the facility. Mr. Berglund said he did believe this. Mr. Berglund further gave reasons why he claimed that Washington County wanted this center to be built in Maplewood. Commissioner Trippler asked that comments be restricted to facts and limited in Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -5- time because of the number of people in the audience. Mr. Berglund stated that he was asked directly by the commission to mention names. He questioned why the citizen comments attached to the staff report did not require names and addresses to document their validity. Bob Zick, East Shore Drive, felt Mr. Berglund brought out some very important facts. He said a "lot of information is not coming out here." According to Mr. Zick, the county has a "very calculated way of putting out misinformation." Mr. Zick questioned the profile of people who use this shelter. He mentioned areas near this site that he says the county considers affordable housing--Hillcrest, Gladstone, North St. Paul. Mr. Zick requested the availability of additional information. He asked if the alternative uses in the future for the building could possibly be a drug and alcohol center or a mission. He said this proposal was not good for the people who would need this facility and definitely not good for Maplewood. Robert Walz of North Branch, Minnesota, the director of congregations in community for the St. Paul Area Council of Churches, was present representing that council. He said the area council operates the overflow shelter for the homeless of Ramsey County in area churches. Mr. Walz is a former resident of Maplewood and said he shares the same view as many current Maplewood residents. He stated reasons that the request should be approved. Mr. Walz said the comprehensive plan change from park to government is logical and consistent with the existing use of the facility and planned use for the property. He felt the site was consistent with the uses of the intended property because it already contains a residential facility and several county buildings. No land will be taken from tax rolls and this is a campus where food and support services can be shared with other facilities. Mr. Walz said there has not been a problem with violence or vandalism in these overflow shelters. Mary Schoenborn, 2649 Midvale Place, said information on the shelter was available much earlier than this summer. She spoke about services convenient in Maplewood that would help serve the homeless. Ms. Schoenborn mentioned that many area residents volunteer at the existing shelter. She said these people do not feel threatened by the residents or circumstances around the shelter. Maria Junehager, 358 Highpoint Curve, concurred with Ms. Schoenborn. She also is a volunteer and felt the shelter would be an asset to the community. Jean Strub, 1929 Price Avenue, has volunteered at the shelter. She said it is a very worthwhile cause and is efficiently run. She feels these people deserve a chance. Ms. Strub visited houses in her neighborhood to give facts about the shelter. Of about 57 houses, she felt approximately ten people were adamantly opposed to the center. Many were neutral. Ms. Strub is submitting a petition to the staff signed by many in her neighborhood. Mary Jean Mulhern, an employee of Healthcare for the Homeless, urged the commission to recommend approval of this proposal because shelter is a health care issue. She pointed out that the majority of people, at some time or another, came from some other place. Philip Kingren, 2367 Larpenteur Avenue East, spoke about the fear in the community created by misinformation. He is in favor of the shelter. He said Maplewood could perform a "needed role in the 2nd and 3rd tier suburbs" and be a model for other communities. Mr. Kingren commended the commission for a job well done. Barbara Skoglund, 1969 Price Avenue, described typical homeless people. She urged the planning commission to allow Ramsey County to build the Family Service Center "in her backyard." David Skoglund, 1969 Price, thought the parameters of the site are well defined. Peter Fischer, 2443 Standridge Avenue, also spoke in favor of the proposed center. He did not feel it would be disruptive to the neighborhood. Mr. Fischer was concerned about comments that were made by some people at the meeting. Carrie Wasley, representing the White Bear Business Association, said the organization is against building the shelter at this location. One reason is the effect it would have on the community as a whole. Ms. Wasley mentioned large empty retail spaces, deteriorating housing Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -6- stock in the area, poorly-maintained apartments in the area, closed businesses, etc. She asked for "more positive investments in the public sector." Ms. Wasley was also concerned about the impact the shelter would have on the Ramsey County Fair. In response to a question from Ms. Wasley, a representative of Ramsey County said residents of the seven-county metro area are returned to the county they came from so that county can provide for their needs. All residents of the shelter aro screened. The county representative said the shelter as planned would not accommodate a second or third story. Ms. Wasley said a printout of the police calls to the current facility downtown St. Paul is available. She felt reality was somewhere between those who felt the shelter would be no problem and those who thought it would be a groat many problems. Chairperson Fischer said the planning commission is an advisory body to the city council. The commission will only make a recommendation, which basically will apply to the land use consideration, and the city council will make the final decision. This item will be considered by the council on January 25, 1999 in the Maplewood Community Center. Commissioner Rossbach asked that any further comments be limited to two minutes per person. The commission agreed with this time limitation. Bob Zick thought the comments that called people racist, made by some that had organized and lobbied this issue, should be resisted. He felt the only people that used this term are those who are pushing the "intake processing center." He said for "the rest of the community to have valid questions and be painted in that light is very degrading." Mr. Zick asked about the screening process and how it was determined if people were from Ramsey County. Ms. Nelson said they were dependent on what people tell them but a significant number of people are sent back to their county of origin in the metro area. The screening process is not to screen people out but to try to put them into any situation other than the shelter. Leslie Lane asked the breakdown of why people are in the homeless shelter and questioned the support services provided to them. Ms. Nelson answered that thero are numerous reasons for homelessness. Through June of 1998, 28 percent of the people were in the shelter because they were evicted, 38 percent were there because of lack of affordable housing, 6 percent are from housing units that have been condemned, 71 percent were in a personal or family crisis, 5 percent are thero because of physical abuse, 2 percent because of alcohol or drug abuse, 2 percent mental illness, 1 percent fear of crime or violence, and 8 percent for no listed reason (often people indicated more than one reason). Jean Petroski didn't feel that the average 12 day stay in the shelter was sufficient time to educate an individual who is having problems making rent payments or finding employment. She also mentioned adequate follow-up. There was no further comment from the public so Chairperson Fischer closed the public hearing portion of the meeting. Kevin Berglund said he asked for additional comment before the hearing was closed so he was allowed two additional minutes. Mr. Berglund protested the time limitation on the public testimony. He questioned how a decision could be made at this meeting because the lines on the map indicating the area to be changed from P to G were not definite and facts were inaccurate and inconsistent. The hearing was then closed. Commissioner Rossbach asked the definition of unlawful detainer. Commissioner Pearson said it was legal action taken, usually originated by the landlord, where the landlord and tenant appear in court to argue their points on either nonpayment of rent or eviction for cause. Ms. Nelson said bus tokens are provided for the use of residents and bus is the primary means of transport. Commissioner Rossbach was interested in a comparison between the availability of bus service in Maplewood and downtown and the effect on this program. Commissioner Frost, a daily bus rider, said there aro a number of buses that run within a short walking distance of this site and go Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -7- to downtown. Commissioner Rossbach agreed that the map showing the land use plan designation change should have been more definite and disagreed with the thought that the parks building is a park instead of a building. He said he would not be voting in favor of this change if all the buildings that are used by the county at this site are not included in the change. Mr. Rossbach felt it would be appropriate, in an effort to retain as much of this area with a park listing, to change only the footprint and the land in between the existing buildings. He didn't feel this change should include the land beyond the buildings. He exempted the arena and the golf dome. Mr. Rossbach said the parking lot should stay with the park designation. Commissioner Frost was unclear about the proposal to change from park to government. Ken Roberts showed the site plan included in the staff report on which he had just added lines to represent Mr. Rossbach's concerns. Commissioner Rossbach agreed with the area designated on the map. He thought the government designation should cover the buildings and not the land (the parking lot). Commissioner Frost moved the Planning Commission recommend: Ao Adoption of the resolution which amends the comprehensive land use plan from P (park) to G (government facility) for the proposed Ramsey County Family Service Center (northeast of 2000 White Bear Avenue), Ramsey Nursing Home (2000 White Bear Avenue) and county barn (2020 White Bear Avenue). Approval is because: This change for the proposed Family Service Center would be consistent with the comprehensive plan's goals and policies by providing housing and services to meet the needs of nontraditional households. This change would correct the land use plan map by incorporating the Ramsey Nursing Home site and the county barn site into the G classification rather than the current P classification. B° Adoption of the resolution which approves a conditional use permit for the Ramsey County Family Service Center. Approval is based on the findings required by the code and subject to the following conditions: 1. All construction shall follow the site plan approved by the city. The director of community development may approve minor changes. The proposed construction must be substantially started within one year of council approval or the permit shall become null and void. The council may extend this deadline for one year. 3. The city council shall review this permit in one year. Commissioner Thompson seconded. Chairperson Fischer asked staff why the reasons given under Recommendation A were not reversed. Mr. Roberts thought they were both very important. Mr. Roberts asked if it was the intention of the motion to include the county parks building. Chairperson Fischer agreed that it was the intention "as redefined by staff at the request of Commissioner Rossbach." Ms. Fischer was uncomfortable allowing a parking variance without the standard wording used in other conditional use permits when a variance had been allowed. This wording addressed the potential for future parking problems. Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -8- Commissioner Pearson requested that information from the police department be included with this type of request. He had a real serious question about whether this location would be a better place for children if "people getting off the bus downtown from Chicago with 15-, 16-, 17-year old kids from gangs are going to be placed in with these children." He questioned the discrepancy in number of police calls given and didn't feel comfortable going forward with this request. Commissioner Thompson said, at a previous open house, he had conversation about this age span in the children and was told that the teenager referred to "were an extreme minority." It was indicated to Mr. Thompson that a teenager in this situation would usually stay with a friend in another home. He pointed out that, for a teenager, this is a very embarrassing, traumatic situation. Commissioner Pearson asked about the definition of residency as it pertained to the program. Mr. Pearson also questioned if he should abstain from voting because he is a landlord. It was the consensus that his voting would not be a conflict of interest. Ms. Nelson said a decision was made by the county board about a year ago to not exclude people who were from outside the state of Minnesota from use of this facility. Many people who use this intake facility are on public assistance and it can be determined if they are receiving funds from somewhere within the state of Minnesota. Ms. Nelson said about 15 percent of the children they see in a year's time are between the ages of 12 and 18. Commissioner Rossbach asked if it would be within the time allotted to table this item. Mr. Roberts said it could be tabled only until the next meeting. Mr. Rossbach was concerned about more information on two issues--the discrepancy in relation to the police reports and a comparison between what type of programs Maplewood has allowed in the community versus other neighboring communities. He requested this information before he voted. Melinda Coleman, director of community development, told Mr. Rossbach that she would need more information on what he meant by county programs. Mr. Rossbach thought these were "the programs that presumably people wouldn't want." He defined that further as programs similar to this, drug treatment programs, and juvenile detention facilities. Commissioner Pearson requested information from the St. Paul Police Department on their assessment of the nature of the crimes and calls from the building that houses the Family Service Center downtown. He wanted to know how many of these calls were to residences of people who originally went through the intake facility and then were placed in permanent housing on other floors of the Lowry building. He was concerned that Ramsey County can't "have enough, because it is government, safeguards in place that perhaps you have to take too many people that are serious problems." He would like to see strong constraints on the qualifications of people that are going to placed in this particular facility. Commissioner Thompson thought that, with a conditional use permit, there was a possibility for communication between the city and the county. Chairperson Fischer asked if the commissioners wanted to consider the comprehensive plan amendment and the conditional use permit separately. It was decided to divide the question for vote. Chairperson Fischer asked for a vote on the following: Ao Adoption of the resolution which amends the comprehensive land use plan from P (park) to G (government facility), not as proposed originally but as describe by Mr. Rossbach and redefined by staff, for the proposed Ramsey County Family Service Center (northeast of 2000 White Bear Avenue), Ramsey Nursing Home (2000 White Bear Avenue) and county barn (2020 White Bear Avenue). Approval is because: Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -9- This change for the proposed Family Service Center would be consistent with the comprehensive plan's goals and policies by providing housing and services to meet the needs of nontraditional households. This change would correct the land use plan map by incorporating the Ramsey Nursing Home site and the county barn site into the G classification rather than the current P classification. Ayes--Fischer, Frost, Rossbach, Thompson Trippler Nays--Pearson The motion passed. Commissioner Rossbach asked if the move to table would override the motion on the floor. Chairperson Fischer said it would but asked if she could make an addition to the motion as it now stands before Mr. Rossbach made his motion. Chairperson Fischer moved to amend the motion to add the statement that Ramsey County should add more parking to the site if the city council deems it necessary. The motion was seconded. Ayes--all The motion passed. Commissioner Rossbach moved to the table the motion until the next meeting of the planning commission to allow time to gather additional information, through the Maplewood and St. Paul Police Departments, in order to reconcile the numbers in the police calls made to the Lowry Building. Information is also requested on whether language could be included where Ramsey County would not place the most objectionable (dangerous) types of clients in this particular facility which is largely for women and children. Some type of comparison, with surrounding Ramsey County communities, of programs like shelters, juvenile detention and drug treatment. Commissioner Pearson seconded. Commissioner Pearson asked that staff be directed to include a report from the police department when items such as this are to be considered. Ken Roberts said the Maplewood Police Department was notified of this request and made no comment. Commissioner Thompson stated that he asked for police reports from surrounding communities on a previous item and found them to be "quite meaningless." Mr. Rossbach clarified that he was not asking for police reports, but wanted the numbers of centers in each city. Commissioner Trippler asked if the issues, as they relate to the tabling, are germain to the issues that the commission has the ability to vote on. Melinda Coleman felt this was within the boundaries of the commission's vote because this is a conditional use permit and these were concerns that had been brought forth, especially the police calls, and therefore were germain to the CUP and the general welfare of the people. Ayes--Rossbach, Pearson Nays--Frost, Thompson, Trippler The motion failed. Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -10- Chairperson Fischer did not vote because the tie would not make a prevailing side so the motion would fail. Commissioner Frost called the question. The motion, as it now stood, was to: Adopt the resolution which approves a conditional use permit for the Ramsey County Family Service Center. Approval is based on the findings required by the code and subject to the following conditions: 1. All construction shall follow the site plan approved by the city. The director of community development may approve minor changes. The proposed construction must be substantially started within one year of council approval or the permit shall become null and void. The council may extend this deadline for one year. 3. The city council shall review this permit in one year. 4. The county shall add more parking to the site if the city council deems it is necessary. Ayes--Fischer, Frost, Rossbach, Thompson, Trippler Nays--Pearson The motion passed. Chairperson Fischer requested that staff have the additional information on the police calls available by the time this item goes before the city council on January 25, 1999. A five-minute recess was taken before the next item. VI. NEW BUSINESS A. Motor Fuel Station Ordinance Amendment Ken Roberts, associate planner, presented the staff report. Chairperson Fischer felt the intent of the ordinance was not a restriction on parking but on sight so that the pumps are visible. A sign at the fuel station she frequents restricts truck or camper parking in the area between the attendant window and the pumps. Mr. Roberts said the code says no parking spaces within the line of vision between the dispensers and the attendant window but doesn't distinguish what type of vehicle is going to park in these spaces. He read the ordinance, as now written, to potentially eliminate some parking places that are near the front of the station that are more convenient for most people to use. Chairperson Fischer asked staff if information was available from the police department on the number of persons who have left a motor fuel station without paying for their gas. Staff was not aware of any data from the police. Mr. Roberts said video-tape surveillance is now available at most stations. Mark Nelson, real estate manager for Holiday Companies, felt their site on McKnight Road was of adequate size to add the dispenser. Mr. Nelson said that at 100 percent of their new stations they are trying to get as much parking along the entrance to the building as possible. He explained that the attendants are up on a platform so they have not experienced the visibility problem. The arrangement of the pump in relation to the building and attendant makes it much Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -11- easier to identify vehicles being fueled and get license plates if necessary. Mr. Nelson was not aware of a specific problem at their location on McKnight Road with drive-offs. Commissioner Rossbach thought this request was an "attack on our city and on our residential areas." He referred to a list, compiled by the planning commission in the last year or so, of things they did not want in commercial development that is in the 350-foot radius from residential areas. Mr. Rossbach saw approval of this application as a step backward. He felt the intent of Holiday was to build this station as large as one that would typically have more pumps with the intent to request additional dispensers at this later date. Mr. Rossbach stated "there is absolutely no way I will ever vote to make it so that we move any type of commercial business closer to residential areas. If I had my druthers there would be no businesses within 350 feet of residential areas, let alone gas stations." He urged the commission to vote against this. Chairperson Fischer asked Commissioner Rossbach's feelings about the alternative that would allow a third dispenser by CUP. He said if they have apply to be a minor fuel station they are within 350 feet of a residential area so there is no way he would want to allow the third dispenser by CUP. This would make them a more intense use and residences should be sheltered from this intensity. Mr. Rossbach thought it would be appropriate to put an amortization date on existing nonconforming uses to make them conforming uses. Commissioner Frost asked for a definition of dispenser. Staff defined it as one where only one car could be filled on each side at one time but It would be possible to have up to six hoses. Commissioner Thompson thought it was "ill-advised" to eliminate Section h of the ordinance that says no parking space shall be within the line of vision between self-service fuel dispensers and the attendant's window. Chairperson Fischer concurred with Mr. Thompson in that she was not comfortable with eliminating Section h. She also was not entirely comfortable with allowing a maximum of three dispensers at all of the minor fuel stations. Ms. Fischer said she would possibly consider a third dispenser by CUP. Mr. Nelson remarked that this commercial use is in existence near a residential use and questioned if it would be a worse situation with three dispensers as opposed to two. Commissioner Pearson agreed with Mr. Rossbach that if the applicant wanted to be a major fuel station they should have applied for that to begin with. He said the plan was approved as a minor fuel station and that is what it should remain. Commissioner Thompson saw this application as two more parking spaces. He referred to another fuel station request where the applicant stated that the majority of the customers park at the island for their fuel and come in to purchase additional items. Commissioner Rossbach said this is not an issue of whether it would be okay to add another dispenser at this particular station but whether the city is going to start "letting up on what we have done for the last number of years and that is to try to move businesses away from residential areas." Mr. Rossbach viewed the minor fuel station as small stations tucked into a neighborhood and service that area. It is not the intent for them to service everyone passing by. He was insistent that the rules originally laid out should not be changed now that the station has been built. Chairperson Fischer inquired about the difference between a two- and three-dispenser station. She stated that she would be interested in knowing how many nonconforming stations there are that are within 350 feet of residential areas so she could look at them and see how many pumps they have and how it affects the area. Commissioner Pearson thought the city council may not have approved the initial request for this station had it been applied for with three dispensers and therefore been a major fuel station. Commissioner Fischer looked at this request from an ordinance standpoint. For Ms. Fischer's information, Ken Roberts pointed out the location of three nonconforming stations on Century Avenue. Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -12- Mr. Nelson said the whole process for Holiday has been "based on a business desire and customer complaints and requests." He stated that there was not necessarily a direct link between having more dispensers and more traffic and customers. He felt the issue was that when the traffic is on the roads, people want to get in and out. Commissioner Frost moved the Planning Commission recommend that the no action be taken on the code amendment. Commissioner Rossbach seconded. The motion passed. Ayes--all Mr. Roberts asked the commission if they felt the record was clear on why no action was being taken. The consensus was that the commission did not agree with any of the changes. Chairperson Fischer stated that, on the basis of the information available at this time, the commission "could not feel comfortable in eliminating Section h." They also agreed that their feelings were reflected in the comments made by Commissioner Rossbach. Ms. Fischer thought she might have been comfortable in requiring a CUP to allow the third dispenser if she had some additional information. VII. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS VIII. Kevin Berglund commended Commissioner Pearson on being "reflective" and not being "intimidated by the full flesh of the county government who has been working on this campaign since April to try to shove this into Maplewood." He found the inaccuracies, the manner in which the government mislead people, and the unanswered questions to be disturbing. Mr. Berglund claimed there was very little evidence on many of the things the county said. Commissioner Pearson responded by saying he felt there is a very strong and demonstrated need for mothers with children in abusive situations, and he had no problem with the location or size of the proposed building. He only wanted controls. Bob Zick advised that the community needed to worry about not turning into "another east side." He advocated that responsibility be given to those who have gone through the system and abused it. Mr. Zick felt this proposal did not comply with the Maplewood Comprehensive Plan and this was "glossed over" by the commission. Commissioner Rossbach said that was only Mr. Zick's interpretation in assuming everyone else was wrong and that was the problem. He claimed that Mr. Zick made up his own facts, i.e. that Mr. Rossbach or anyone else on the commission never considered the comprehensive plan. Chairperson Fischer defended Mr. Rossbach and other commissioners by pointing out that they do question the staff reports when the have disagree. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS Ao B. C. D. E. November 9 Council Meeting: Ken Roberts reported on this meeting. November 23 Council Meeting: Ken Roberts reported on this meeting. December 14 Council Meeting: Ken Roberts reported on this meeting. December 28 Council Meeting: Mr. Thompson will attend this meeting. January 11 Council Meeting: Mr. Rossbach will attend this meeting. IX. STAFF PRESENTATIONS Commission Reappointments: The planning commission terms of Ms. Fischer and Mr. Ledvina will expire at the end of 1998. Planning Commission Minutes of 12-21-98 -13- X. ADJOURNMENT The meeting adjourned at 11:40 p.m.